Ok i stupidly sold my SP240 turbo kit while i worked out what i was doing with my poorly engine, thats all sorted now so going to build up another turbo setup for it, this time its a low budget initial build just to get me going and then as things progress will look to uprate and change a few things down the line once i make a plan for rest of car.
Ive decided to started with a Malian Log type manifold despite my reservations on these as i expressed on anther thread, but to get me going its the easiest option so manifold ordered end of last week from Lewis Winpenny/ Roadster Sport Ltd and it arrived today see below...
malian.jpg
Externally the quality is pretty decent and looks nice and solid, flanges are not perfectly flat but not far off and i can dress them up at work, problem started when i inspected it internally and seems ive been sent a "not quite finished" one :( the runners on cyl 2 & 3 have not been ported out properly where they join the log tube and there is a step blocking flow,, i spoke to Lewis and he offered to exchange it no question, however i dont know if they are all like this or not so im just going to finish it up myself which wont take much.
Pic below showing the before...
malian-before.jpg
Pic below after i dressed it back with powerfile, still a little bit to do but its nearly there and a lot better.
malian-after.jpg
Also when i got home had to mock it up on spare engine im on rebuilding, sits ok and think i can make it work so once i get this engine finished and next track event out the way will get started on fitting it to my car.
Pic of it mocked up..
malian-mockup1.jpg
Can see your reservations about the manifold, while it looks well made the flow must be terrible.
Quote from: 105e on August 27, 2020, 18:36Can see your reservations about the manifold, while it looks well made the flow must be terrible.
Its certainly not the smoothest flow path but it will do the job i think and relys on brute force to get the gasses into turbo, will be interesting to see how it compares to my previous SP240 setup (same turbo just different manifold) which i have a lot of data from/
This manifold design could be easily improved with some small changes, tapered collector being main thing to help with flow, also angle its mounted onto main log body puts the turbo a long way back from engine, probably to allow bigger turbos but anyone wanting a big turbo setup would want a much better manifold anyhows!, the other manifold i was looking at (turbokits.com cast one) puts the turbo too close to engine block to mount it the way i have it above which is my preffered setup and why i didnt go that way, with turbokits setup if you mount this way it fouls on engine block, anyhows at least i have something to work with and looking forward to after my next track outing on 20th September when i can get on with building it on car.
Pic showing clearance between turbo and block, plenty of room for GT42! ..lag city :)
malian-mockup2.jpg
Any update on this? I've been looking through turbo conversion options and the Roadster Sport Ltd manifold was one of the main ones I was looking at but your pics/description has put me off.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 20:28Any update on this? I've been looking through turbo conversion options and the Roadster Sport Ltd manifold was one of the main ones I was looking at but your pics/description has put me off.
Anything cast will do the job.
There are a couple on ebay.
The only ones I can find on eBay in the UK are the Roadster Sport Ltd ones.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 8, 2021, 20:33Anything cast will do the job.
There are a couple on ebay.
Any links to them? only seen silly money ones last time I looked.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 20:45The only ones I can find on eBay in the UK are the Roadster Sport Ltd ones.
I ended up selling it all due to changing plans! Now looking to start again and roadster sport ones only sensible money option I've seen, they are not best design but will do the job and I will probably end up with another one.
Quote from: thetyrant on April 8, 2021, 20:48Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 20:45The only ones I can find on eBay in the UK are the Roadster Sport Ltd ones.
I ended up selling it all due to changing plans! Now looking to start again and roadster sport ones only sensible money option I've seen, they are not best design but will do the job and I will probably end up with another one.
The only other one I can find is a cast one that's nearly a grand! I only want to run a low boost conversion (180-200bhp tops) so I'm guessing that manifold will do despite its flaws?
Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 20:52Quote from: thetyrant on April 8, 2021, 20:48Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 20:45The only ones I can find on eBay in the UK are the Roadster Sport Ltd ones.
I ended up selling it all due to changing plans! Now looking to start again and roadster sport ones only sensible money option I've seen, they are not best design but will do the job and I will probably end up with another one.
The only other one I can find is a cast one that's nearly a grand! I only want to run a low boost conversion (180-200bhp tops) so I'm guessing that manifold will do despite its flaws?
Watch the skid factory on YouTube you don't need a fancy turbo manifold to make good power but you do want it to be strong and last.
I can't seem to find the ones I've seen previously. 😕
I can weld so I could make one but I don't really know the science behind the type of design I would need so probably easier just buying one.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 21:04I can weld so I could make one but I don't really know the science behind the type of design I would need so probably easier just buying one.
Make a log manifold out of steam pipe. It doesn't have to be equal length or purged or anything like that.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 8, 2021, 21:04I can weld so I could make one but I don't really know the science behind the type of design I would need so probably easier just buying one.
I'm tempted to make a simple log type like 1979scotte says, basics of the megalin/roadster sport one with some small tweaks to improve design and turbo position,however for what they cost probably just buy one as more than good enough for your power goals which are similar to mine and what I had with last turbo setup.
What turbo did you have on your last build? I was attracted to the roadster sport one due to T25 fitting as due to only wanting a relatively small bhp increase I'd be shooting for a smaller unit for quicke spool and more physical space in the engine bay.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 9, 2021, 06:02What turbo did you have on your last build? I was attracted to the roadster sport one due to T25 fitting as due to only wanting a relatively small bhp increase I'd be shooting for a smaller unit for quicke spool and more physical space in the engine bay.
The offical TTE turbo came with a TB2559 that was good for around 190 and Silverstone performance manged to get 230 out of them.
If I was doing a turbo again I'd go with a GT2554R. Or Chinese equivalent.
That does look perfect for what I want although it is quite a price jump from a T25. I've only experience of thrust bearing turbos from back in my ford escort days so curious to know the advantages of ball bearing, is it just a quicker spool with BB?
Quote from: McSmallface on April 9, 2021, 06:02What turbo did you have on your last build? I was attracted to the roadster sport one due to T25 fitting as due to only wanting a relatively small bhp increase I'd be shooting for a smaller unit for quicke spool and more physical space in the engine bay.
My first kit (which was basically the SP240 with extras) used a garrett turbo from a Saab 9000 but there are a few versions, this is a like for like one that i bought to replace it when i suspected oil seal issue - Ebay Saab Garrett turbo (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turbocharger-Saab-9000-2-0-108-125kw-9146051-452083-REMAN-Turbo-Gasket-kit/330996626882) i got it without needing to do exchange but see then need a core unit now or pay £60 surcharge but still a cheap turbo, it spooled quick and made approx 230hp easily at around 8psi on my car according to datalogs/virtual dyno etc.
I will probably use same again and its what i have in pics on this thread which is the spare from original kit i bought, i sold it with megalin manifold but its not being used so i can get it back, its a cheap and solid little turbo which spools well and flows plenty of air for my power goals, maybe some gains from a more modern design but i doubt there is much to be gained to be fair at this level and newer designs are much more cost.
Cooling the intake is the key depending on car usage, if its just road use a rear mounted air to air IC like the SP kits uses isnt terrible and if boost is kept low it can just about cope, if planning to track car or run higher boost then a decent chargecooler setup is the key and what i will do next time, my last kit had the SP240 Air2air and it was ok on road but on track only took a couple of laps to send temps up above 50c and that wasnt even a hot day and boost only 7psi, it was right on edge of accceptable for me and think a hot day and more boost would of pushed it too far for saftey without having to dial back tune to cope.
I don't intend to do any track days and I only want below 200bhp as I've got motorbikes for track days etc so I just want a nice manageable slightly quicker car. Saying that I would probably go charge cooler anyway just to increase reliability as the engine is over 100k so want to try and get as many miles out of it as I can before I have to rebuild it.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 9, 2021, 08:20I don't intend to do any track days and I only want below 200bhp as I've got motorbikes for track days etc so I just want a nice manageable slightly quicker car. Saying that I would probably go charge cooler anyway just to increase reliability as the engine is over 100k so want to try and get as many miles out of it as I can before I have to rebuild it.
Sounds good a little saab turbo would do the job then, only potential issue i found was the actuator i got with the rebuilt unit in post above was 9-10psi whereas the one on the Sp240 kit was 6psi, i felt 6psi was a nice safe spot and good for keeping intake temps down and still made around 200hp at that, i would rather have a lower pressure actuator and use boost controller to increase if required as like to be able to turn boost down if required. Anyhows just factor in getting a lower psi actuator if you went for the turbo i linked above.
Around 200hp and similar torque in these cars makes them a rapid little motor :) also the extra slug of torque low down means you can be lazy with engine and no need to revs its nuts of to make rapid progress :D
All this turbo talk has got me motivated to get back on with mine, ive got a trackday booked for early may so will get that out the way first then get going on turbo again, ive still got the Emanage blue fitted from 2nd attempt so i just need to turbo hardware sorted and i can get it up and running, will probably switch to a Link or ECUmasters further down line but the EMB should be ok for low boost starting point :)
Quote from: McSmallface on April 9, 2021, 08:20I don't intend to do any track days and I only want below 200bhp as I've got motorbikes for track days etc so I just want a nice manageable slightly quicker car. Saying that I would probably go charge cooler anyway just to increase reliability as the engine is over 100k so want to try and get as many miles out of it as I can before I have to rebuild it.
100% go charge cooler the tte and sp intercooler are pony.
I did contact roadster sport as they mentioned a full turbo kit available on their manifold listing.
He replied saying a full kit with everything you need for £2200-£4200 depending on options (which includes ecumaster emu black) or a basic kit for £995 which includes everything you need except turbo, ecu, injectors, charge cooler or meth injection and wideband sensor.
Quote from: McSmallface on April 9, 2021, 08:56I did contact roadster sport as they mentioned a full turbo kit available on their manifold listing.
He replied saying a full kit with everything you need for £2200-£4200 depending on options (which includes ecumaster emu black) or a basic kit for £995 which includes everything you need except turbo, ecu, injectors, charge cooler or meth injection and wideband sensor.
Everything you need lol.
That's just turbo manifold and lines I would imagine for 995.
So the kit consists of:
Manifold
Downpipe
Turbo to v band adapter
Charge pipe
Tial style blow off valve
Goodridge braided turbo feed hose
Oil feed adapter fitting
Oil return hose
Various AN fittings for the feed and return hoses
Sump AN adapter
Braided water feed and drain hoses
Water hose adapters
Water hose banjo fittings
Silicone hoses for the charge pipe
Silicone hoses for the vacuum feeds
Exhaust gaskets
Studs and nuts for the manifold, turbo and adapters
Various clamps for the charge pipe fittings
Air filter for the turbo
Defo need to try a 1zz turbo at some point, bet they're chalk and cheese compared to my 2zz.
Quote from: JB21 on April 9, 2021, 09:45Defo need to try a 1zz turbo at some point, bet they're chalk and cheese compared to my 2zz.
They're very different .
Tbh I find the 2zz totally underwhelming. Especially if the exhaust has been cocked up.
Mike's 2zz with cams and ecumaster is pretty good and they go nicely when rotrexed.
I'm a torque fan so they just don't suit me.
Turbo is the best bang for your bucks imho.
Quote from: JB21 on April 9, 2021, 09:45Defo need to try a 1zz turbo at some point, bet they're chalk and cheese compared to my 2zz.
You should try a supercharged 1ZZ!
Quote from: McSmallface on April 9, 2021, 09:28So the kit consists of:
Manifold
Downpipe
Turbo to v band adapter
Charge pipe
Tial style blow off valve
Goodridge braided turbo feed hose
Oil feed adapter fitting
Oil return hose
Various AN fittings for the feed and return hoses
Sump AN adapter
Braided water feed and drain hoses
Water hose adapters
Water hose banjo fittings
Silicone hoses for the charge pipe
Silicone hoses for the vacuum feeds
Exhaust gaskets
Studs and nuts for the manifold, turbo and adapters
Various clamps for the charge pipe fittings
Air filter for the turbo
I would ask if that is all ready to fit parts? as in a kit that just needs a turbo, or just universal stuff which might be suitable which to me is not a kit, i seem to remember in past they just supplied another member a box of universal parts which needed to be made to fit/work etc and some parts were still needed so hardly what i would call a kit, also you could probably source it all a lot cheaper all depends what you can do/make yourself but its a starting point if your not familiar with doing jobs like this just dont expect too much.
The manifolds are not bad value but the 995 kit ive seen on ebay i wouldnt bother with personally, as you can see by the difference in there price for a fitted kit there is a lot more too it than the bits you get for 995 and add on a turbo :D
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 9, 2021, 10:27Quote from: JB21 on April 9, 2021, 09:45Defo need to try a 1zz turbo at some point, bet they're chalk and cheese compared to my 2zz.
They're very different .
Tbh I find the 2zz totally underwhelming. Especially if the exhaust has been cocked up.
Mike's 2zz with cams and ecumaster is pretty good and they go nicely when rotrexed.
I'm a torque fan so they just don't suit me.
Turbo is the best bang for your bucks imho.
Agree to an extent, for the road anyway. On track is where the 2ZZ is at home...revs, noise, vibrations etc. A 2zz supercharged would be perfect for me. You still have the above attributes but torque to go with it.
I would place a bet that it's just universal fittings and pipework and it's down to you to make everything fit, a bit confused how exhaust downpipes etc are being supplied without a turbo as surely it's all got to mate up depending on what turbo you have?
I'd love to go supercharged but I know even less about that then I do about turbos. There is a 1zz blitz supercharger kit on eBay but as I know feck all about superchargers I haven't got a clue what I'm looking at.
There is no easy supercharger kit for the 1zz anymore and i think the old jap kits like Blitz etc where not great for various reasons, most people recently that have supercharged 1zz and 2zz fit a Rotrex where the AC pump usually sits down on front of engine which makes a neat install, however i looked at this myself but didnt for several reason first being the cost of a Rotrex unit and the kit you need to lube it etc, which is well north of £2000 new and used ones a really lottery! next im not a fan of way they deliver the power as they work in a linear way building boost with revs so dont really feel boosted like a turbo does as you dont get the hit of low down torque with a Rotrex generally, i like the strong midrange you get with turbo making lazy fast progress possible.
Rotrex have there place just not for me, although if price was better i would like to play around with one just to see how i got on with it but unless i got chance of a cheap known good used one its not going to happen.
Carolyn on here has supercharged a 1zz with a twin screw unit from a BMW mini which i also did on my old Mazda MX, these do make great midrange torque and loved mine on the mazda getting full boost just off idle and it made a great little road/track setup on that car, however mounting on 1zz in back of the car is a challenge but C has had success with it after some lateral thinking and it is something i would consider doing instead of a turbo but we will see.
The supercharger car is still at my place and is available to view and have a drive for the next few weeks before it gets sold.
It's a unique chance to find out what it's all about.
Quote from: thetyrant on April 9, 2021, 14:56There is no easy supercharger kit for the 1zz anymore and i think the old jap kits like Blitz etc where not great for various reasons, most people recently that have supercharged 1zz and 2zz fit a Rotrex where the AC pump usually sits down on front of engine which makes a neat install, however i looked at this myself but didnt for several reason first being the cost of a Rotrex unit and the kit you need to lube it etc, which is well north of £2000 new and used ones a really lottery! next im not a fan of way they deliver the power as they work in a linear way building boost with revs so dont really feel boosted like a turbo does as you dont get the hit of low down torque with a Rotrex generally, i like the strong midrange you get with turbo making lazy fast progress possible.
Rotrex have there place just not for me, although if price was better i would like to play around with one just to see how i got on with it but unless i got chance of a cheap known good used one its not going to happen.
Carolyn on here has supercharged a 1zz with a twin screw unit from a BMW mini which i also did on my old Mazda MX, these do make great midrange torque and loved mine on the mazda getting full boost just off idle and it made a great little road/track setup on that car, however mounting on 1zz in back of the car is a challenge but C has had success with it after some lateral thinking and it is something i would consider doing instead of a turbo but we will see.
The rotrex is much better than most centrifugal superchargers it's not all in the last 1000rpm.
Price wise a brand new garrett gtx2867r with all the bits is going to be £1500 and as you say the rotrex will be closer to 2k.
The rotrex makes an engine feel like you have just added another litre of capacity it doesn't change the character of the engine.
It also doesn't tap into your engine coolant or oil lines nor does it heat your engine bay to super nova temperatures.
On the down side its not easy to change boost levels and you won't get a nice torque plateau.
Also the traction fluid which is the key to how a rotrex is so much better than other centrifugal superchargers is like £70 a litre.
When my V6 car runs properly the rotrex makes it a lot of fun.
If you like being scared shi***ss
Quote from: Carolyn on April 9, 2021, 15:09The supercharger car is still at my place and is available to view and have a drive for the next few weeks before it gets sold.
It's a unique chance to find out what it's all about.
Mines there too.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 9, 2021, 15:16The rotrex is much better than most centrifugal superchargers it's not all in the last 1000rpm.
Price wise a brand new garrett gtx2867r with all the bits is going to be £1500 and as you say the rotrex will be closer to 2k.
The rotrex makes an engine feel like you have just added another litre of capacity it doesn't change the character of the engine.
It also doesn't tap into your engine coolant or oil lines nor does it heat your engine bay to super nova temperatures.
On the down side its not easy to change boost levels and you won't get a nice torque plateau.
Also the traction fluid which is the key to how a rotrex is so much better than other centrifugal superchargers is like £70 a litre.
When my V6 car runs properly the rotrex makes it a lot of fun.
If you like being scared shi***ss
As i said they have there place i dont think its for me at least on a 1zz, you having a rotrex on a V6 is not really an argument for one on a 1zz as you have some reasonable torque without the boost :D
Certainly the linear power delivery of a rotrex is a benefit especially in a larger capacty engine making it much easier to control than a big lump of torque with a turbo, also in theory its easier on the engine as your not under as much stress low down like you could be with a punchy smaller turbo.
Below is a good example (if pic works!) of difference between a rotrex 2zz (red line on graph) and turbo 2zz (blue line on graph as i couldnt find a good 1zz comparison, as you can see they both make similar peak power at the topend with rotrex gain 20hp right at top, but the way the get there is very different and to me for mostly road use its all about the area under the curve as in more of it the better, meaning no need to use the revs to make rapid progess, however on a track car where your singing in the higher revs more of the time the Rotrex is more appealing especially if it can keep air temp down better maybe.
Not having to plumb into oil and water circuits is a big plus on supercharging and why i did it on the mazda, however now having done a turbo on 1zz the oil/water side doesnt worry me as much as its not as bad as i thought, once i got a decent drain fitting into sump that is!
Cost of Rotrex is the killer really on these cars i think, to do it with new stuff its more like £3000+ for parts by time you have bought all filter, pulleys, brackets and fluid etc, just the blower alone is £2500 with the vat, so i think its going to be double the cost of turbo for less torque, im surprised that you liking torque so much you favour the Rotrex over turbo to be honest ? maybe your scared of what your V6 would do with a turbo on there :)) :))
(http://www.ddperformanceresearch.com/images-bc/Dyno%20Files/DDPR%20cars%20and%20comparisons/2ZZ%20Turbo%20vs%20Rotrex.jpg)
Link here to the thread with details on cars this graph was from, as they say teh turbo car was set ot make 300hp and would of easily made more with boost but the customer didnt want it - https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/rotrex-vs-turbo.86281/
Just to add the the above you can see how laggy the GT28 is on a 1.8 litre motor, the smaller T25 turbo i had was making peak torque a lot lower down.
Quote from: thetyrant on April 9, 2021, 16:16Just to add the the above you can see how laggy the GT28 is on a 1.8 litre motor, the smaller T25 turbo i had was making peak torque a lot lower down.
You don't need a GT28 on a roadster I wholeheartedly agree.
My rotrex unit was 1700 quid mate the other bits didn't add up to 3 grand.
I totally understand what your getting at. You totally get more power for less money with a turbo than you do with a rotrex and you do miss that big slug or torque a turbo provides but the linear power delivery from a rotrex is very sweet.
Can't argue that they work better the more displacement you have to work with. A bone stock 1mz makes about 170 ftlb at 2k rpm so it doesn't need any help down low.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 9, 2021, 16:45My rotrex unit was 1700 quid mate the other bits didn't add up to 3 grand.
I dont think you could buy and fit one for much less than 3 grand now, its £2400 for charger, oil tank, filter, pipe and oil etc, then you need to get air in and out and into engine etc and mount it, sort belt and tensioners etc it soon adds up.
All depends what people want i guess, it would be good to tinker with one but on a cheap car like this its not really worth it for most.
Quote from: thetyrant on April 9, 2021, 20:49Quote from: 1979scotte on April 9, 2021, 16:45My rotrex unit was 1700 quid mate the other bits didn't add up to 3 grand.
I dont think you could buy and fit one for much less than 3 grand now, its £2400 for charger, oil tank, filter, pipe and oil etc, then you need to get air in and out and into engine etc and mount it, sort belt and tensioners etc it soon adds up.
All depends what people want i guess, it would be good to tinker with one but on a cheap car like this its not really worth it for most.
Jesus the prices really have gone up.
Yes your right at £2400 you won't get it done for under 3k.
Shame because it's a different option. It's a power adder that still feels NA.
Well ive made a start on reviving this project and ordered another Malian Manifold :D
Ive got a trackday in a couple of weeks so will get that out the way and then decide if im doing more in stock form or to start the turbo build, i really need to get my spare 1zz engine back together and out the way first though!
be good to see. Hope you get to a TSS round!
I need to find /understand turbos and sizes. I know i have a t3 flange on my manifold, I think the saabs us a t3 flange. I know the sierra cossies did..
Quote from: pistol pete on April 22, 2021, 16:46be good to see. Hope you get to a TSS round!
I need to find /understand turbos and sizes. I know i have a t3 flange on my manifold, I think the saabs us a t3 flange. I know the sierra cossies did..
Yes indeed hopefully make it to a TSS either na or turbo, ive missed out on my local at croft left it too late while grumbling about the new prices! :(
Flange wise it does get a bit confusing but i found a good site with dimensions if you need to check here - https://www.sincocustoms.com/identifing-turbo-flanges/
T3 is a common fitment on older stuff like you say but also newer garret stuff is available in T3 as well, what sort of power are you thinking of going upto ?
This is an interesting T3 read and I think he has a couple of videos on YouTube.
http://www.stavtech.co.uk/home/stavs-tech-tips-the-holset-he221w-360bhp-capable-and-fast-spooling-turbo-can-be-easily-fitted-to-standard-subaru-volvo-and-saab-exhaust-manifolds-and-downpipes
I know what group i am aiming for so 300hp is the aim, keeps in well within the engines limits
Ill have a reads of them thanks
Quote from: pistol pete on April 22, 2021, 18:13I know what group i am aiming for so 300hp is the aim, keeps in well within the engines limits
Ill have a reads of them thanks
Which engine are we talking about?
300 is a lot for a stock engine.
Pete has 2zz so 300 shouldn't be an issue :)
Quote from: thetyrant on April 22, 2021, 21:09Pete has 2zz so 300 shouldn't be an issue :)
Have to be wary of the torque.
The transmission is still a C series box.
Driven
1zz
1zz turbo
2zz with cams
2zz rotrex
1mz
1mz rotrex
2gr
Never a 2zz turbo
Sounds like its the only one your missing out on :D
Quote from: thetyrant on April 22, 2021, 22:38Sounds like its the only one your missing out on :D
K20 of any description never even seen one in the metal.
3s gte never got a chance to have a go in Lee's one.
1zz supercharged obviously seen and heard
@Gibla @Carolyn one but not driven it.
Yes most engine swaps and mods I've tried.
Forgot also been in a NA 1zz fully modified
@tommyzoom99 car
Personally have experience with both Honda B18C(Del Sol conversion) and K units in a 2011 CTR - awesome engines, but not a huge amount of torque, thus essential to be in the right gear or else(probably similar to the 2zz)
I was close to writing/posing a question to you all last night
What are the most cost-effective options to achieve 190-200bhp in a '2' + itemise the pros/cons of the driving characteristics of each of the avenues....I realise this is hijacking the thread somewhat, so tell me to b.off if needs be
Quote from: Gibla on April 23, 2021, 12:01Personally have experience with both Honda B18C(Del Sol conversion) and K units in a 2011 CTR - awesome engines, but not a huge amount of torque, thus essential to be in the right gear or else(probably similar to the 2zz)
I was close to writing/posing a question to you all
What are the most cost-effective options to achieve 190-200bhp in a '2' + itemise the pros/cons of the driving characteristics of each of the avenues....I realise this is hijacking the thread somewhat, so tell me to b.off if needs be
The most cost effective way would be to buy a car with a tte turbo kit installed or buy a secondhand kit and have the turbo refurbished for piece of mind.
The turbos are so small there isn't lag as such and they only run 7 ish psi so no real strain on the engine. And obviously it's all toyota spec.
I like this quote
'Probably as much luck looking for rocking horse poo with hens teeth in it mate!!'
via
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1857006
So it's very difficult to locate a kit or indeed a converted car .
Quote from: Gibla on April 23, 2021, 12:01Personally have experience with both Honda B18C(Del Sol conversion) and K units in a 2011 CTR - awesome engines, but not a huge amount of torque, thus essential to be in the right gear or else(probably similar to the 2zz)
I was close to writing/posing a question to you all last night
What are the most cost-effective options to achieve 190-200bhp in a '2' + itemise the pros/cons of the driving characteristics of each of the avenues....I realise this is hijacking the thread somewhat, so tell me to b.off if needs be
You already own it! get the superblue bugs ironed out and away you go :)
2zz is probably cheapest to get 180ish and as long as you can find a good engine and dont mind having to stay above 6000prm to make progress its a proven option.
Turbo is prob next cheapest but if you cant do work yourself it gets expensive and all depends how far you want to to.
Quote from: thetyrant on April 23, 2021, 12:25Quote from: Gibla on April 23, 2021, 12:01Personally have experience with both Honda B18C(Del Sol conversion) and K units in a 2011 CTR - awesome engines, but not a huge amount of torque, thus essential to be in the right gear or else(probably similar to the 2zz)
I was close to writing/posing a question to you all last night
What are the most cost-effective options to achieve 190-200bhp in a '2' + itemise the pros/cons of the driving characteristics of each of the avenues....I realise this is hijacking the thread somewhat, so tell me to b.off if needs be
You already own it! get the superblue bugs ironed out and away you go :)
2zz is probably cheapest to get 180ish and as long as you can find a good engine and dont mind having to stay above 6000prm to make progress its a proven option.
Turbo is prob next cheapest but if you cant do work yourself it gets expensive and all depends how far you want to to.
2zz is only cheaper if you do the work yourself.
Last time I had a turbo kit fitted it was like 3k all in.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 23, 2021, 12:572zz is only cheaper if you do the work yourself.
Last time I had a turbo kit fitted it was like 3k all in.
Yes maybe but 2zz is still cheapest option i think and easiest one to diy, or normal/non-specialist garage capable as 2zz is basically a bolt in job with only custom parts required providing you get the ecu etc are the exhaust and 1 engine mount both which are available ready to fit, little bit of wiring for the lift but again plug and play parts are available for that, turbo setup is much more involved as you know hence more cost unless your lucky to find a complete TTE kit of course but hens teeth are more common and stock kit isnt that good, good chance it will be tired as well but in good order makes a reasonable road only setup :D
Gearbox is another issue if going 2zz and wanting to retain LSD, the celica 2zz close ratio box is needed to keep the 2zz in lift but it doesnt have LSD, if just a road car maybe not so much of an issue for most who probably never need a LSD, however if wanting to retain the LSD it needs to be swapped over from the MR2 box or one sourced to fit into Celica box. There are some jobs to do on linkages to fit celica box into back of MR2 but nothing too tricky.
Ive looked at 2zz swapping several times and if my car was pure track i might consider it, however as its mainly road use and i do sprint events which require good response and wider powerband ive never gone down the 2zz route, maybe one day :D
Interesting reading. I've been reading up on turbo installs since someone on FB said they were getting 240whp/270fwbhp on stock internals, 13psi dropping to 10psi @ 6krpm. Bold claims. I always thought the SP-alike figures were ambitious tbh but it seems there are a few out nice builds there with reasonable evidence of the claimed power. Although I bet there are loads of back-street garage or home builds that are claiming big power when they're really wheezing away like an asthmatic dog.
Turbos aren't my thing tbh, I prefer the delivery, noise and emotion of a sweet N/A (125bhp/L tuned N/A = dreams). But I can see the appeal when looking at the cost vs benefit (power). Makes sense for daily drivers that like a bit of grunt or for motorsports/out-and-out performance.
I'll follow this build with added interest now :)
Quote from: Roj on April 25, 2021, 10:26Interesting reading. I've been reading up on turbo installs since someone on FB said they were getting 240whp/270fwbhp on stock internals, 13psi dropping to 10psi @ 6krpm. Bold claims. I always thought the SP-alike figures were ambitious tbh but it seems there are a few out nice builds there with reasonable evidence of the claimed power. Although I bet there are loads of back-street garage or home builds that are claiming big power when they're really wheezing away like an asthmatic dog.
Turbos aren't my thing tbh, I prefer the delivery, noise and emotion of a sweet N/A (125bhp/L tuned N/A = dreams). But I can see the appeal when looking at the cost vs benefit (power). Makes sense for daily drivers that like a bit of grunt or for motorsports/out-and-out performance.
I'll follow this build with added interest now :)
Everyone who claims big numbers never seems to hang around long.
#justsayin
I've put more miles on an Sp240 kit than most. Its more than quick enough and you wouldn't want to push that setup any harder. Asthmatic intercooler and piggyback ecu with such a small turbo can't be pushed any harder.
My current car is 255 whp and its no quicker on a tight twisty b road than any other 2.
In fact sometimes it's less fun because you can only use 50% of the power it offers.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 25, 2021, 10:42Quote from: Roj on April 25, 2021, 10:26Interesting reading. I've been reading up on turbo installs since someone on FB said they were getting 240whp/270fwbhp on stock internals, 13psi dropping to 10psi @ 6krpm. Bold claims. I always thought the SP-alike figures were ambitious tbh but it seems there are a few out nice builds there with reasonable evidence of the claimed power. Although I bet there are loads of back-street garage or home builds that are claiming big power when they're really wheezing away like an asthmatic dog.
Turbos aren't my thing tbh, I prefer the delivery, noise and emotion of a sweet N/A (125bhp/L tuned N/A = dreams). But I can see the appeal when looking at the cost vs benefit (power). Makes sense for daily drivers that like a bit of grunt or for motorsports/out-and-out performance.
I'll follow this build with added interest now :)
Everyone who claims big numbers never seems to hang around long.
#justsayin
I've put more miles on an Sp240 kit than most. Its more than quick enough and you wouldn't want to push that setup any harder. Asthmatic intercooler and piggyback ecu with such a small turbo can't be pushed any harder.
My current car is 255 whp and its no quicker on a tight twisty b road than any other 2.
In fact sometimes it's less fun because you can only use 50% of the power it offers.
This is how we felt about the SP240.
With the standalone it was better (although it still needed a fair bit of tweaking to make it as "oem" as sp240) but the power delivery was much more controlled, allowing the mr2-like drive (foot down out of corner) without the fear of the back swinging out. Personal choice on our side as I know most want that wallop of torque that a turbo delivers.
This is the benefit of modern standalone and I suspect how we see setups achieving higher HP figures these days - the ability to control torque delivery to spare the gearbox.
This is why I'm absolutely more sold on something like C's SC car. It seems the. Mr2 just thrives off linear power delivery.
Or a V6.
But... I still stand by the fact that
@mikek 's Stg2 2zz is the best mr2 I've driven for power delivery ever. Loved it.
Quote from: shnazzle on April 25, 2021, 11:31Quote from: 1979scotte on April 25, 2021, 10:42Quote from: Roj on April 25, 2021, 10:26Interesting reading. I've been reading up on turbo installs since someone on FB said they were getting 240whp/270fwbhp on stock internals, 13psi dropping to 10psi @ 6krpm. Bold claims. I always thought the SP-alike figures were ambitious tbh but it seems there are a few out nice builds there with reasonable evidence of the claimed power. Although I bet there are loads of back-street garage or home builds that are claiming big power when they're really wheezing away like an asthmatic dog.
Turbos aren't my thing tbh, I prefer the delivery, noise and emotion of a sweet N/A (125bhp/L tuned N/A = dreams). But I can see the appeal when looking at the cost vs benefit (power). Makes sense for daily drivers that like a bit of grunt or for motorsports/out-and-out performance.
I'll follow this build with added interest now :)
Everyone who claims big numbers never seems to hang around long.
#justsayin
I've put more miles on an Sp240 kit than most. Its more than quick enough and you wouldn't want to push that setup any harder. Asthmatic intercooler and piggyback ecu with such a small turbo can't be pushed any harder.
My current car is 255 whp and its no quicker on a tight twisty b road than any other 2.
In fact sometimes it's less fun because you can only use 50% of the power it offers.
This is how we felt about the SP240.
With the standalone it was better (although it still needed a fair bit of tweaking to make it as "oem" as sp240) but the power delivery was much more controlled, allowing the mr2-like drive (foot down out of corner) without the fear of the back swinging out. Personal choice on our side as I know most want that wallop of torque that a turbo delivers.
This is the benefit of modern standalone and I suspect how we see setups achieving higher HP figures these days - the ability to control torque delivery to spare the gearbox.
This is why I'm absolutely more sold on something like C's SC car. It seems the. Mr2 just thrives off linear power delivery.
Or a V6.
But... I still stand by the fact that @mikek 's Stg2 2zz is the best mr2 I've driven for power delivery ever. Loved it.
Was a well sorted car that one.
Best example of the NA 2zz if experienced.
Tbh your sp240 wasn't right and the way you had it mapped on the Ecumaster was a little strange.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 25, 2021, 11:39Quote from: shnazzle on April 25, 2021, 11:31Quote from: 1979scotte on April 25, 2021, 10:42Quote from: Roj on April 25, 2021, 10:26Interesting reading. I've been reading up on turbo installs since someone on FB said they were getting 240whp/270fwbhp on stock internals, 13psi dropping to 10psi @ 6krpm. Bold claims. I always thought the SP-alike figures were ambitious tbh but it seems there are a few out nice builds there with reasonable evidence of the claimed power. Although I bet there are loads of back-street garage or home builds that are claiming big power when they're really wheezing away like an asthmatic dog.
Turbos aren't my thing tbh, I prefer the delivery, noise and emotion of a sweet N/A (125bhp/L tuned N/A = dreams). But I can see the appeal when looking at the cost vs benefit (power). Makes sense for daily drivers that like a bit of grunt or for motorsports/out-and-out performance.
I'll follow this build with added interest now :)
Everyone who claims big numbers never seems to hang around long.
#justsayin
I've put more miles on an Sp240 kit than most. Its more than quick enough and you wouldn't want to push that setup any harder. Asthmatic intercooler and piggyback ecu with such a small turbo can't be pushed any harder.
My current car is 255 whp and its no quicker on a tight twisty b road than any other 2.
In fact sometimes it's less fun because you can only use 50% of the power it offers.
This is how we felt about the SP240.
With the standalone it was better (although it still needed a fair bit of tweaking to make it as "oem" as sp240) but the power delivery was much more controlled, allowing the mr2-like drive (foot down out of corner) without the fear of the back swinging out. Personal choice on our side as I know most want that wallop of torque that a turbo delivers.
This is the benefit of modern standalone and I suspect how we see setups achieving higher HP figures these days - the ability to control torque delivery to spare the gearbox.
This is why I'm absolutely more sold on something like C's SC car. It seems the. Mr2 just thrives off linear power delivery.
Or a V6.
But... I still stand by the fact that @mikek 's Stg2 2zz is the best mr2 I've driven for power delivery ever. Loved it.
Was a well sorted car that one.
Best example of the NA 2zz if experienced.
Tbh your sp240 wasn't right and the way you had it mapped on the Ecumaster was a little strange.
It certainly wasn't right. That's for sure.
The mapping also left much to be desired, but I was just mega grateful it wasn't trying to blow itself up kill us anymore :)