Been covered umpteen times and usually with a negative conclusions. Till the TorqueAmp.
As electric motors and their controllers are developing I am keeping track.
The latest crop claims:
(https://image.pushauction.com/0/0/712aa0b7-271a-4f67-91b7-8bec1213f03e/4027ec85-da49-4bdb-aca7-22956c5b1d43.jpg)
With max 26 Amp. it could even be the true performance.
It is driven by a signal from the TPS so working like a an exhaust gas driven one unlike the Torque amp which was more like NOx.
Getting more interesting all the time.
Quote from: Petrus on January 29, 2021, 18:54Been covered umpteen times and usually with a negative conclusions. Till the TorqueAmp.
As electric motors and their controllers are developing I am keeping track.
The latest crop claims:
(https://image.pushauction.com/0/0/712aa0b7-271a-4f67-91b7-8bec1213f03e/4027ec85-da49-4bdb-aca7-22956c5b1d43.jpg)
With max 26 Amp. it could even be the true performance.
It is driven by a signal from the TPS so working like a an exhaust gas driven one unlike the Torque amp which was more like NOx.
Getting more interesting all the time.
Definitely a work in progress.
Needs to triple its RPM.
My Rotrex does 100k and I think turbos spin even quicker.
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 29, 2021, 19:19Definitely a work in progress.
Needs to triple its RPM.
My Rotrex does 100k and I think turbos spin even quicker.
Definitely. It is only 12-16V and that is not going to cut it.
48V versions do but.... starting at 2K + the piggy back.
Keeps developing though, especially now major manufacturers are developing/implementing it.
You know what's already out there, works, has had years of R&D, is more efficient and makes more power? ;)
... Turbochargers.
Quote from: shnazzle on January 29, 2021, 19:46You know what's already out there, works, has had years of R&D, is more efficient and makes more power? ;)
... Turbochargers.
You know why alternatives are looked at; thermal load/ complex install.
The exhaust gas turbo has the incredible advantage of recycling energy. Recuperating energy on the overrun makes it even more efficient. That is OEM install only though :-(
For after market install an efficient/effective electric remains an option to keep in view: Seen the drag test by Cleetus? Ok, we don´t want it like that but on the tps but still impressive. As he says; a few wires, 2 hrs tube faffing and hoppa!
Quote from: shnazzle on January 29, 2021, 19:46You know what's already out there, works, has had years of R&D, is more efficient and makes more power? ;)
... Turbochargers.
A bugger to keep the air cool
Laggy if you want big horse power.
They use your own engine oil and water for coolant and lubrication.
Something like this in conjunction with rotrex tech would be a winner.
And how much, with the extra battery power, alternator power and powerful (heavy) electric motor all weigh?
Any additional boost adds weight, of course, but a belt don't weigh much!!
I'd have a screw type supercharger every time.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 29, 2021, 20:17And how much, with the extra battery power, alternator power and powerful (heavy) electric motor all weigh?
Any additional boost adds weight, of course, but a belt don't weigh much!!
I'd have a screw type supercharger every time.
Me too Carolyn. You know I totally dig superchargers; I´d lóve the TRD Corolla! supercharger squeezed behind the firewall.
Still, an e-turbo would be a supersimple install as the 90 degree bend in the inlet rubber offers the perfect spot.
My current battery weighs 800 gram. An extra 24V one for the hairdryer would not weigh the car down.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 29, 2021, 20:17And how much, with the extra battery power, alternator power and powerful (heavy) electric motor all weigh?
Any additional boost adds weight, of course, but a belt don't weigh much!!
I'd have a screw type supercharger every time.
All valid points but in another 10 years this will be a far more viable tech.
You'll be able to select how many psi you want at any given moment.
It's a shame petrol will be in the same category as nuclear waste or nerve agents by then.
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 29, 2021, 20:45All valid points but in another 10 years this will be a far more viable tech.
You'll be able to select how many psi you want at any given moment.
It's a shame petrol will be in the same category as nuclear waste or nerve agents by then.
24V would work nów already.
Brushless EDF motors can do up to some 65.000 rpm and the strongest ones could be set up to drive a small turbo, replacing the exhaust turbine.
I can't wait for the tech to develop further. It seems Mercedes AMG have made use of an electric turbo before?
mercedes amg electric turbocharger (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/amp32883694/mercedes-amg-electric-turbocharger/)
The AMG ´mild hybrid´E53 has a
´Think of it like an electric turbo. Or a supercharger. An AMG product planner told me the company calls it a compressor because it behaves like both. The car's 48-volt system powers an electric motor that spins a turbine up to 70,000 rpm in an instant for a maximum of seven pounds of boost pressure.´
Quote from: Petrus on January 29, 2021, 22:47The AMG ´mild hybrid´E53 has a
´Think of it like an electric turbo. Or a supercharger. An AMG product planner told me the company calls it a compressor because it behaves like both. The car's 48-volt system powers an electric motor that spins a turbine up to 70,000 rpm in an instant for a maximum of seven pounds of boost pressure.´
It's really cleaver stuff. Is any of it available to joe public just yet?
Quote from: Hammond on January 29, 2021, 23:00Quote from: Petrus on January 29, 2021, 22:47The AMG ´mild hybrid´E53 has a
´Think of it like an electric turbo. Or a supercharger. An AMG product planner told me the company calls it a compressor because it behaves like both. The car's 48-volt system powers an electric motor that spins a turbine up to 70,000 rpm in an instant for a maximum of seven pounds of boost pressure.´
It's really cleaver stuff. Is any of it available to joe public just yet?
The Phantom 24V and TorqAmp 48V ´are´ sofar the only ones ´commercialised´. The former has disappeared and the latter has supply delay.
Currently the only ´availeble´ is fit a high output EDF motor to the compressor side of a conventional turbo.
The EDF is powered by a LiPo battery, charged by a DC LiPo charger from the car battery. The motor is controlled by RC tech and the signal taken from the TPS.
Quote from: Petrus on January 29, 2021, 23:26Quote from: Hammond on January 29, 2021, 23:00Quote from: Petrus on January 29, 2021, 22:47The AMG ´mild hybrid´E53 has a
´Think of it like an electric turbo. Or a supercharger. An AMG product planner told me the company calls it a compressor because it behaves like both. The car's 48-volt system powers an electric motor that spins a turbine up to 70,000 rpm in an instant for a maximum of seven pounds of boost pressure.´
It's really cleaver stuff. Is any of it available to joe public just yet?
The Phantom 24V and TorqAmp 48V ´are´ sofar the only ones ´commercialised´. The former has disappeared and the latter has supply delay.
Currently the only ´availeble´ is fit a high output EDF motor to the compressor side of a conventional turbo.
The EDF is powered by a LiPo battery, charged by a DC LiPo charger from the car battery. The motor is controlled by RC tech and the signal taken from the TPS.
It would work so much better if you fitted it to a rotrex.
It takes my engines 6500 rpm and turns it into 100k rpm.
The hydraulic fluid it uses is pretty clever stuff.
I suppose as always the issue is batteries.
Although Garretts E turbos which are going to be fitted to the next AMG models seem to have their cake and eat it.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32891748/mercedes-amg-and-garrett-e-turbo-engines/
the Rotrex is like most turbo intalls in mý eyes compromised by the delete of the OEN inlet and the need for piggy back ecu.
If that is needed then I´d prefer the road Carolyn took with the Mini supercharger.
As it is .... not :-[
Marginal power gains it is :))
Quote from: Petrus on January 30, 2021, 01:56the Rotrex is like most turbo intalls in mý eyes compromised by the delete of the OEN inlet and the need for piggy back ecu.
If that is needed then I´d prefer the road Carolyn took with the Mini supercharger.
As it is .... not :-[
Marginal power gains it is :))
It's got a full stand alone ecu and a MAF delete runs a MAP sensor so not really like Carolyn's tbh.
That's before you get to the engine and gearbox swap.
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 30, 2021, 01:53Although Garretts E turbos which are going to be fitted to the next AMG models seem to have their cake and eat it.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32891748/mercedes-amg-and-garrett-e-turbo-engines/
At the bottom of the page on that link is a discussion about :
"Cars for $15K That Will Hold Their Value: Window Shop with Car and Driver"
Guess what car the first guy up proposed!
I was very interested when I heard about the torq amp as the signs seemed to be that it works.
I like that the system can be fitted very quickly and can be moved to other cars. There is no agonising over the size of turbo etc, it is very straightforward.
If it works then it could give the car the overtaking boost it needs.
I am still waiting to see some real world owners reviews though. At the moment there seems to be just their own promotional videos and the Cleetus MacFarland stuff which really is just drag racing with no mention of day to day driving.
To my mind, the questions that have yet to be answered are;
What is the weight of the complete TA system?
What is the effect of the restriction caused by it on performance/economy when the TA is not operating?
How does the system control work in practice?
What sort of ECU is available?
How easy is it to find someone to map it?
I am surprised that there havent been more youtube videos done by owners yet but hopefully there will be some eventually and we will know if they are a genuine answer for some people.
TA:
- 10 kg.
- works like NOx boost, not continuous
- about 10% power drop when not operating
- on Toyota piggy back needed as per traditional turbo
- more mapping hassle as no base maps availeble
Imo installing an NOx system is a more practical solution than the TA so go figure...
A pity that the 24V Phantom did not come off the ground. That was supersimple and within OEM ecu boundaries.
Quote from: Joesson on January 30, 2021, 10:53Quote from: 1979scotte on January 30, 2021, 01:53Although Garretts E turbos which are going to be fitted to the next AMG models seem to have their cake and eat it.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32891748/mercedes-amg-and-garrett-e-turbo-engines/
Pity about the same old BS :o
At the bottom of the page on that link is a discussion about :
"Cars for $15K That Will Hold Their Value: Window Shop with Car and Driver"
Guess what car the first guy up proposed!
Quote from: SV-3 on January 30, 2021, 12:30Quote from: Joesson on January 30, 2021, 10:53Quote from: 1979scotte on January 30, 2021, 01:53Although Garretts E turbos which are going to be fitted to the next AMG models seem to have their cake and eat it.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32891748/mercedes-amg-and-garrett-e-turbo-engines/
Pity about the same old BS :o
Would have been $20k if it had a hardtop 8)
At the bottom of the page on that link is a discussion about :
"Cars for $15K That Will Hold Their Value: Window Shop with Car and Driver"
Guess what car the first guy up proposed!
The TorqueAmp being like NOx in use had me look in my library and want to share a title: Nitrous-Oxide Injection - Practical Methods for Reliable Horsepower. Made mé chuckle ;)
Quote from: Joesson on January 30, 2021, 10:53At the bottom of the page on that link is a discussion about :
"Cars for $15K That Will Hold Their Value: Window Shop with Car and Driver"
Guess what car the first guy up proposed!
Not sure the proposal met with universal approval...
Quote from: scm2004red on January 31, 2021, 08:49Quote from: Joesson on January 30, 2021, 10:53At the bottom of the page on that link is a discussion about :
"Cars for $15K That Will Hold Their Value: Window Shop with Car and Driver"
Guess what car the first guy up proposed!
Not sure the proposal met with universal approval...
As is said in the NOP and such like, 1 in 5 of those interviewed were in favour that means 20% approved!
(Of course it could be taken that 4 in 5 were not in favour and 80% did not approve).
I'll settle for our car being described, by one of the dissenters, as " more interesting than a Miata".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBiHg5feKIU
the main issue with the concept being unmentioned; that is is a restriction when not boosting.
NOx at least does not cost power to charge nor restricts flow.
Bóth systems are basically boost only though coming at a weight penelty.
I think I´d rather spend the money on permanently added lightness ;-)
Quote from: Petrus on January 31, 2021, 13:17https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBiHg5feKIU
the main issue with the concept being unmentioned; that is is a restriction when not boosting.
NOx at least does not cost power to charge nor restricts flow.
Bóth systems are basically boost only though coming at a weight penelty.
I think I´d rather spend the money on permanently added lightness ;-)
One of the systems got around that by spinning up enough to match the air flow of the engine.
Obviously it used power without gaining you any boost but didn't cost any bhp.
they are mainly used for eliminating turbo lag and not as a separate boost solution.
Even at 48V they will never get past 10KW or so and that is miles away from a turbocharger.
https://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-audis-electric-supercharger-works-to-elimin-1823681637
I worked on the above project, it was interesting but short lived as hybrid cars do the "turbo lag elimination" with High voltage electric traction motors, as such the industry lost interest and there is not enough aftermarket volume to justify the cost (at least for the company I worked with, other might have a different opinion).
Quote from: gon on February 1, 2021, 09:48they are mainly used for eliminating turbo lag and not as a separate boost solution.
Even at 48V they will never get past 10KW or so and that is miles away from a turbocharger.
https://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-audis-electric-supercharger-works-to-elimin-1823681637
I worked on the above project, it was interesting but short lived as hybrid cars do the "turbo lag elimination" with High voltage electric traction motors, as such the industry lost interest and there is not enough aftermarket volume to justify the cost (at least for the company I worked with, other might have a different opinion).
Ok, you have convinced me; NOS it is ;-)
No, seriously, I think you nailed it on the head. It is never going to be something beyond a hobbyists after market niche.
Quote from: Petrus on February 1, 2021, 11:33Quote from: gon on February 1, 2021, 09:48they are mainly used for eliminating turbo lag and not as a separate boost solution.
Even at 48V they will never get past 10KW or so and that is miles away from a turbocharger.
https://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-audis-electric-supercharger-works-to-elimin-1823681637
I worked on the above project, it was interesting but short lived as hybrid cars do the "turbo lag elimination" with High voltage electric traction motors, as such the industry lost interest and there is not enough aftermarket volume to justify the cost (at least for the company I worked with, other might have a different opinion).
Ok, you have convinced me; NOS it is ;-)
No, seriously, I think you nailed it on the head. It is never going to be something beyond a hobbyists after market niche.
Excuse me Garretts E turbos fitted to the next gen MB AMG.
Hardly niche.
Quote from: 1979scotte on February 1, 2021, 11:57Excuse me Garretts E turbos fitted to the next gen MB AMG.
Hardly niche.
E-turbos are not all the same and the ´hybrid´ ones with exhaust gas and electric drive plus energy recuperation wíll see development.
I was referring to e-only turbos.
Quote from: Petrus on February 1, 2021, 12:46Quote from: 1979scotte on February 1, 2021, 11:57Excuse me Garretts E turbos fitted to the next gen MB AMG.
Hardly niche.
E-turbos are not all the same and the ´hybrid´ ones with exhaust gas and electric drive plus energy recuperation wíll see development.
I was referring to e-only turbos.
Perhaps we should call them electric superchargers
Quote from: 1979scotte on February 1, 2021, 13:01Perhaps we should call them electric superchargers
E-only yes, agree, because ´turbo´ infers the exhaust gas drive turbine thus an e-turbo ´should´ have both.
yes, dont get the 2 in the same pot.
The electric supercharger is likely to be reliable as it does not have to deal with the extreme temperatures of the exhaust nor with the extreme rotational speeds of the turbocharger.
The electrically assisted turbocharger we are yet to see... either there is a huge temperature differential between both edges of the device or I don't see them being reliable (and I mean reliable as in lasting 10 years and 200k miles , not lasting as in lasting 10 races ...)
Perhaps with seperate electronics/inverter the main motor can get to 200Degc and if it is located on the inlet side then maybe it's reasonable ... but ... there is always a big but ... a good turbocharger these days spools above 200K RPM and there is no electric machine that goes that fast, so most likely they will have to compromise the max speed of the device to integrate an electric motor...
Quote from: gon on February 2, 2021, 11:19yes, dont get the 2 in the same pot.
The electric supercharger is likely to be reliable as it does not have to deal with the extreme temperatures of the exhaust nor with the extreme rotational speeds of the turbocharger.
The electrically assisted turbocharger we are yet to see... either there is a huge temperature differential between both edges of the device or I don't see them being reliable (and I mean reliable as in lasting 10 years and 200k miles , not lasting as in lasting 10 races ...)
Perhaps with seperate electronics/inverter the main motor can get to 200Degc and if it is located on the inlet side then maybe it's reasonable ... but ... there is always a big but ... a good turbocharger these days spools above 200K RPM and there is no electric machine that goes that fast, so most likely they will have to compromise the max speed of the device to integrate an electric motor...
I think technology moves on ridiculously fast and they won't need to compromise the exhaust gases just take over.