The brakes work fine and stop very well.
I know there is supposed (and is) free play
But I'd just like the pedal to be a little firmer at the top.
Any tips?
@Ardent Jason, If you are light footed on the brakes they may not be self adjusting completely.
I suggest, and practice it myself, when stationary/ parked with the engine on, handbrake off give the brake pedal, a few very firm pumps.
See what difference that makes for you.
Does it feel spongey/air ?
Bleed brakes. Properly.
Change of pads. The Yellowstuff are a cost-effective way to get that "bite".
That and your flexi lines may be past best. Replace or replace with braided.
Massive difference in "bite" between pads. My opinion:
Blueprint are - - - - - - ======
Toyota oem are - - - - - =====+
Pagid are - - - =======++++
Mtec are - - =======++++
Brembo same as mtec. Maybe a bit more stable across the braking force
Yellowstuff are ==+++++++
That's all I've tried so far.
On top of that I'd say a fresh bleed with good fluid can make a lot of those "-" feel like "="
@Joesson I do, do that. For the reasons we have discussed many moons ago.
The self adjustment is working fine.
Pads are an interference fit.
@Gaz mr-s No. Bled a month ago. But might do them again fir the hell of it.
No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.
@shnazzle Will bleed again.
Flexi swapped out a while ago. Hel lines.
On pagids now.
Maybe be it is age of pads. Don't know.
Not saying they don't work. They do.
All very much in the foot to pedal feel.
For all I know, Mr T. Designed it that way for day to day, soft n gentle to start, then increase.
If you are going to bleed them again Jason, you could try using your phone (assuming smartphone) & video the container to see if you get any bubbles.
I was watching a vid recently by an amateur racer & he said that Rogue bleed the brakes with the engine running. No further info....
Quote from: Ardent on July 17, 2021, 21:43@shnazzle
Will bleed again.
Flexi swapped out a while ago. Hel lines.
On pagids now.
Maybe be it is age of pads. Don't know.
Not saying they don't work. They do.
All very much in the foot to pedal feel.
For all I know, Mr T. Designed it that way for day to day, soft n gentle to start, then increase.
I found the pagids much as you describe, and as I tried to describe in my make-shift diagrams.
They allow for well-dosed, gentle braking day to day but bite more than plenty when needed. Great pads.
But the mtecs and definitely yellows just give you that immediate thump. When you first put the yellows in you have to get used to it but once you are personally I think your control over the brakes increases.
Cheers for the responses.
It would be a good idea to drive someone else's car and then you will know if it is normal or not.
If it is normal there are three ways to get a firmer pedal up top and that is to have calipers that has smaller brake fluid volume than OEM or increase the bore size of the master to take up the slack.
The third way is to use a brake brace that stops the master from flexing against the firewall.
On the flipside it gets worse when you adopt larger calipers. They may stop better or lock up sooner but the pedal feel will be closer to the bottom which is not great. This is why big brake caliper kits needs a correctly sized master.
Quote from: Ardent on July 17, 2021, 21:34No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.
Not happening Jason.
Imo it is the design of the handbrake pistons and abs.
Even swapping to braided lines makes nó difference at all as the OEM ones are simply good quality.
It is good practice what Joesson writes.
You can then also feel that the give is in the system; the pedal begets more play when started up.
For road use I loath pads with initial bite; I want the brakes to be linear. That is as predictable as it gets and gives you the best modulation.
For real wordl use you are likely to drive with different shoes, different soles and it is more forgiving if the brakes are linear and need a bit more pressure.
Quote from: Petrus on July 18, 2021, 11:21Quote from: Ardent on July 17, 2021, 21:34No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.
Not happening Jason.
Imo it is the design of the handbrake pistons and abs.
Even swapping to braided lines makes nó difference at all as the OEM ones are simply good quality.
It is good practice what Joesson writes.
You can then also feel that the give is in the system; the pedal begets more play when started up.
For road use I loath pads with initial bite; I want the brakes to be linear. That is as predictable as it gets and gives you the best modulation.
For real wordl use you are likely to drive with different shoes, different soles and it is more forgiving if the brakes are linear and need a bit more pressure.
I like linear.
Quote from: Petrus on July 18, 2021, 11:21Quote from: Ardent on July 17, 2021, 21:34No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.
Not happening Jason.
Imo it is the design of the handbrake pistons and abs.
Even swapping to braided lines makes nó difference at all as the OEM ones are simply good quality.
It is good practice what Joesson writes.
You can then also feel that the give is in the system; the pedal begets more play when started up.
For road use I loath pads with initial bite; I want the brakes to be linear. That is as predictable as it gets and gives you the best modulation.
For real wordl use you are likely to drive with different shoes, different soles and it is more forgiving if the brakes are linear and need a bit more pressure.
I have mentioned this many times. The solution is very simple and inexpensive. All that is needed is to switch just the fronts to the small Willwood calipers. The displacement is less than the OEM which causes the pedal to be firmer up top because the output volume of the master takes up the slack quickly because there is less volume to fill. Its very elementary and some other platforms change out their brake master cylinder to one that has a larger bore because having a firmer pedal up top is a desirable trait. With our platform no one has tried this yet but it might be possible to try a different master with a slightly larger bore. I wonder if a slightly larger car like the Corolla or older Yaris would have what we need.
Where it gets interesting and probably purely by chance the Willwood caliper has the same swept area area as the OEM caliper. This means that the pad real-estate is the same which is a good thing because there is no alteration of the brake bias. There is a alteration of the modulation for the better because it takes more effort to achieve the same braking pressure giving you that nice firm feel that feels less boosted.
I could care less about ultimate braking or any kind of bite or fade resistance. What is important for a street car is braking feel and linear modulation which gives me confidence and when you have the pedal feel firm up top it makes driving at all times even slow and applying the brakes a real joy.
All good posts.
I would have thought the handbrake mech would only come into play if NOT operating correctly. My auto adjusters are working as they should. Pads are an interference fit. No slack there.
Do the small will woods fit 15s?
Went round again and re bled. Either I did not do as good a job 1st time, or air is getting in. As pulled some more out.
Test drive. Same as before.
I believe this is the intended setup.
Softly for the day to day.
But if you want your nose up against the screen it will do that as well.
Good point about different footwear.
Quote from: Ardent on July 18, 2021, 17:41Do the small will woods fit 15s?
Yes and I believe someone was able to use 14 inch wheels with clearance because the calipers are smaller in size than OEM however it has the same swept area. They also have a radial mounting opposed to axial which is a controversial topic but it is also believed to have a benefit to better braking feel due to less flex.
No need for different sized rotors or any of that other nonsense you find with big brake kits which are useless for a car like ours except for looks. It was very easy to install and when the time comes for pad replacement it can be done in minutes as they just drop in from the top.
Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.
Maybe stopped doing.
Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting
Quote from: Ardent on July 18, 2021, 19:20Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.
Maybe stopped doing.
Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting
There is a thread about it.
Fella from spyderchat does the brackets.
Quote from: Ardent on July 18, 2021, 19:20Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.
Maybe stopped doing.
Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting
There is a relevant thread in the general section that was posted last year with current information and where to buy the bracket hardware and lines. You can then buy the calipers and pads locally. We will have to double check but I am 90% certain these are the calipers.
https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=45&products_id=13899
Here is where you can purchase the brackets.
https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/collections/brake-kits/products/jimbo-brake-kit-for-toyota-mr2-spyder?variant=38151111114933
It is available but its best to search to see if they are right for you but the good thing is, it is reversible if you want to go back to OEM and very easy to do.
Quote from: Dev on July 18, 2021, 19:57Quote from: Ardent on July 18, 2021, 19:20Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.
Maybe stopped doing.
Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting
There is a relevant thread in the general section that was posted last year with current information and where to buy the bracket hardware and lines. You can then buy the calipers and pads locally. We will have to double check but I am 90% certain these are the calipers.
https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=45&products_id=13899
Here is where you can purchase the brackets.
https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/collections/brake-kits/products/jimbo-brake-kit-for-toyota-mr2-spyder?variant=38151111114933
It is available but its best to search to see if they are right for you but the good thing is, it is reversible if you want to go back to OEM and very easy to do.
I remember being put off by the fact that it says max vehicle weight 750kg.
Not sure the insurance man would like it.
Thank you all.
Some more bedtime reading for me.
Quote from: 1979scotte on July 18, 2021, 19:59Quote from: Dev on July 18, 2021, 19:57Quote from: Ardent on July 18, 2021, 19:20Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.
Maybe stopped doing.
Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting
There is a relevant thread in the general section that was posted last year with current information and where to buy the bracket hardware and lines. You can then buy the calipers and pads locally. We will have to double check but I am 90% certain these are the calipers.
https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=45&products_id=13899
Here is where you can purchase the brackets.
https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/collections/brake-kits/products/jimbo-brake-kit-for-toyota-mr2-spyder?variant=38151111114933
It is available but its best to search to see if they are right for you but the good thing is, it is reversible if you want to go back to OEM and very easy to do.
I remember being put off by the fact that it says max vehicle weight 750kg.
Not sure the insurance man would like it.
True however they have been used successfully in the MX-5 and offered as a street/ track kit and it was reported to be a performance upgrade depending on the kind of pads used. If there are any legalities with inspection on the technical side its probably not worth doing.
I am using their least aggressive pad and my car has the same stoping power as before which is able to activate the abs with extreme performance summer tires that are often used for track.
I sent Willwood an email regarding the 750kg rating for the powerlite. There is another vendor for the MX-5 that uses the powerlite calipers and said that the only difference would be accelerated pad wear.
I should hear back from them shortly.
Like most things being an exclusive car has its disadvantages when it comes to what everyone else is doing and we are often left out.
I found this interesting.
https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/ssc-brake-master-cylinder-lotus-eliseexige-big-bore/
We need something like this and Im willing to bet there is another master cylinder from another Toyota product that could possibly bolt up to the brake booster with a slightly larger bore.
The pedal characteristics for our car was most likely chosen to be on the weak side so average people would not complain. We are not average.
The plot thickens.
After doing some deep research I found something of value.
The Corolla/ Matrix/ Celica have a bore diameter of 0.813"
The MR-S uses a bore diameter of 0.875"
Previous generation MR2 and midsized cars and trucks used .9375" Keep in mind that these cars will have larger calipers and more fluid displacement so the pedal softness will be relative and not stiffer as you would think.
This would be perfect but the mounting is off unfortunately and will not be a direct swap as I thought. actually all of them are different and will require modifications. The closest to what works would be the one for the lotus but the mount holes are in the wrong place and it looks like they have taken a factory part and modified the flanges to fit the lotus.
Going to a 1" might be too much for most people as they will feel closer to manual brakes which is not a bad thing as you will have great modulation but for emergency situations where you need to lock the brakes quickly it will be delayed and you need a good amount of pedal effort. The .9375 would have been perfect but its too bad the car will require extensive mods to get it to work.
It appears that Toyota gave us some brake feel with something larger than their sub compact cars so its not exactly parts bin as we were told.
Edit: The Toyota Echo uses the same calipers as our car. It appears it uses the same master as the last generation Celica which has a smaller bore. It is looking more likely that Toyota intentionally gave us better feel in the brakes by making them stiffer.
One minor thing to consider Dev (probably just in terms of placement) but our RHD cars have the master cylinder on the other side, and the design is cosmetically different too.
Only found out by accident when I realised I'd been harbouring a LHD spare, but the reservoir is a different shape too. I assume your findings re: bore remain the same but just thought I'd mention.
Quote from: Dev on July 19, 2021, 17:52It is looking more likely that Toyota intentionally gave us better feel in the brakes by making them stiffer.
As I obeserved there is sóme initial design (emergency brake and abs) ´give´ in the system but from there it is quite good. The initial give is probably a good safety thing for the vast majority of the intended buyers. It precludes immediate lock up by the heavy footed but still gives good modulation for spirited driving.
Quote from: Bossworld on July 19, 2021, 22:08One minor thing to consider Dev (probably just in terms of placement) but our RHD cars have the master cylinder on the other side, and the design is cosmetically different too.
Only found out by accident when I realised I'd been harbouring a LHD spare, but the reservoir is a different shape too. I assume your findings re: bore remain the same but just thought I'd mention.
I was aware that it's on the other side and some differences will be there with line fitting orientation but having looked at a detailed picture it is a different sourced part and you are right it looks entirely different. The manufacturer is JKC for the RHD and for the LHD It's Aisin. However they are the same bore diameter which is embossed on the part being 7/8".
Quote from: Petrus on July 19, 2021, 22:24Quote from: Dev on July 19, 2021, 17:52It is looking more likely that Toyota intentionally gave us better feel in the brakes by making them stiffer.
As I obeserved there is sóme initial design (emergency brake and abs) ´give´ in the system but from there it is quite good. The initial give is probably a good safety thing for the vast majority of the intended buyers. It precludes immediate lock up by the heavy footed but still gives good modulation for spirited driving.
Going with the larger bore on a oem system you need to exert more foot pressure therefore immediate lock up is delayed because it's harder to achieve. It would be a safety concern on the street where you need to build enough line pressure to give maximum breaking force in a shorter period of time.
However the benefits of the larger bore is necessary to move more fluid if you are adopted larger calipers and at that point the brakes will feel relatively normal again if it is calculated.
Other factors that come into play is the brake booster and the pedal fulcrum for mechanical advantage. All of these things make it a very complex thing to get right if you want to modify for a better pedal feel.
Fortunately the Willwood calipers by shear serendipity of having less displacement achieves better pedal feel.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 17, 2021, 21:30Bleed brakes. Properly.
Change of pads. The Yellowstuff are a cost-effective way to get that "bite".
That and your flexi lines may be past best. Replace or replace with braided.
Sorry Jason to take this slightly away from topic, but is there a "how-to" for the brake hoses Patrick?
I was looking at mine (I have a brand new set of braided ones which I won in a competition a couple of years back) and I don't understand how they come apart.
Quote from: The Other Stu on July 20, 2021, 08:16Quote from: shnazzle on July 17, 2021, 21:30Bleed brakes. Properly.
Change of pads. The Yellowstuff are a cost-effective way to get that "bite".
That and your flexi lines may be past best. Replace or replace with braided.
Sorry Jason to take this slightly away from topic, but is there a "how-to" for the brake hoses Patrick?
I was looking at mine (I have a brand new set of braided ones which I won in a competition a couple of years back) and I don't understand how they come apart.
There isn't to my knowledge but it would be a short one.
Only things to bear in mind;
- use a new copper washer and bolt on the caliper side when refitting
- use correct flared spanners for the lines. Keep mole-grips handy in case of severe rust. GT85/PlusGas aplenty.
- lines are different front and back. Don't mix
- HEL lines had some fitment issues with the bracket. Not sure if this has been resolved. Mine have been on without shifting for over 5 years now.
- fresh OEM lines will be as good as braided on the MR2 but braided are generally cheaper. (oddly).
- depress brake pedal fully before starting and hold in place with a bar against the seat or something. It will stop the lines continuously dripping once disconnected
The rest is just.. Take line off, put line on, bleed brakes.
Quote from: Ardent on July 17, 2021, 17:40The brakes work fine and stop very well.
I know there is supposed (and is) free play
But I'd just like the pedal to be a little firmer at the top.
Any tips?
Let me tell you a story:
Many moons ago, I replaced the front discs and pads on my ST205 GT-Four.
The initial brake feel worsened significantly straight away. I was perplexed. I bled the absolute beans out of the brakes, several times.
I changed the lines. I reinstalled the brakes several times.
Things were no better.
In a fit of clarity, I decided to revert back to the last known good configuration, ie: the old discs and pads.
Low and behold, strong initial bite came straight back.
The culprit? Warped, brand new front discs. They had literally never been used, but were warped.
They were pushing the pads away from the disc and into the caliper as they rotated.
This caused the first initial press of the pedal to only take up the slack, not really biting into the disc straight away.
The moral of the story? Check your disc runout, even on brand new discs.
Quote from: Alex Knight on July 25, 2021, 23:49The culprit? Warped, brand new front discs.
Warped front discs I have had too.
Apart from more distance of the pads it gave slight vibration when pushing the car.
Sorted with Brembo discs and pads.
Still, there is still some initial slack in the system. It is imo the boost and abs.
Overall véry satisfied with the braking, with the modulation. I can swith right or left foot brake whenever I want. That is a huge compliment to the system as even when experienced the left foot is not instantly as sensitive as the right.
I did a brake job a few months ago for my other car that had a slight amount of pulsing that I tolerated.
I used something new that came into the market about a year ago that I never heard of called high carbon rotors. They are a premium and cost a little more but well with in realistic pricing to pay the difference.
These rotors were formulated to have a different mixture of metals and process for the benefits of virtually no chance of warping or pulsing due to over heating. One of the other benefits is no pad squeal because the rotor dampens vibrations due to its metallurgical properties which would be great for those that run aggressive pads. I found out that they are available for our car and I am sure if you look hard enough over there there might be a supplier that has them.
The way the Brembos rust -> high carbon steel.
Des te roestie, des te remtie (The more they rusty the more they braky) :))
Don´t know how ´high´ in high carbon for the discs in your response is defined.
A crucial thing with high carbon steel is the way it tempers.
Brake discs should come well tempered from the manufacturer. As important as the material.
Not much different if at all from blade making.
Quote from: Petrus on July 26, 2021, 15:05The way the Brembos rust -> high carbon steel.
Des te roestie, des te remtie (The more they rusty the more they braky) :))
Don´t know how ´high´ in high carbon for the discs in your response is defined.
A crucial thing with high carbon steel is the way it tempers.
Brake discs should come well tempered from the manufacturer. As important as the material.
Not much different if at all from blade making.
I am not the one defining the term and I am not going to make assumptions of any negative effects. It is what the industry is selling as a premium product and many OEMs come with these kind of rotors from what I read. These rotors are not steel they are cast iron but with a different blend and process of making them resilient to pulsing and brake squeal.
See here.
https://knowhow.napaonline.com/brake-rotors-the-six-different-types/
https://centricparts.com/company/news/february-2017/new-centric-premium-high-carbon-rotors-offer-impro
https://www.bremboparts.com/america/en/products/innovation/high-carbon
ah good old marketing of time proven oldie with a twist ;)
Quote from: Petrus on July 26, 2021, 19:02ah good old marketing of time proven oldie with a twist ;)
I see nothing wrong with the marketing if they do offer the benefits they claim over traditional cast iron rotors. Most high quality standard rotors come well balanced and well cast as an industry standard. These rotors are a premium product over standard rotors that can handle a higher level of heat and therefore resist creating high spots that cause pulsing. They are becoming popular as an option and are not a rebranded product as your cynicism suggests.
Standard rotors can be fine depending on how the braking system is designed however there are some vehicles where that are notorious for pulsing like my Lexus, this product offers more resistance to this issue.
I imagine that this will become standard on all OEM cars from the factory because there are no downsides except cost which is not much more than standard.
Quote from: Dev on July 26, 2021, 20:30because there are no downsides except cost which is not much more than standard.
Even a dime is important depending on the sector.
Also rusty discs are an issue depending on the sector/wheel design.
We are dwelling from the topic though.
Having bled twice.
Something that popped up here.
I have always been engine off.
A reference to Rouge bleeding engine running.
Pros cons?
General searching gives 80 20. In favour of off.
Another variation
I was opening the bled screw, op2, pressing the pedal. Then closing.
Toyota say.
3-4 pumps and hold. Then open. Pedal sinks. Then close. Release.
No mention engine on or off.
Engine doesn't need to be on.
You can drop the brake pedal to the floor pretty much once you open the bleed screw. That's all you need.
My early cars had no brake booster so no point in having the engine running.
My understanding is that the ( modern) booster reduces the pedal pressure necessary to operate the brakes.
As
@Alex Knight says there is very little pedal resistance when a bleed valve is opened, having the engine running to create vacuum to power the booster will have no helpful effect on the bleeding of any entrained air from the system/ fluid.
PS.
Not mentioned thus far is the brake fluid. Assuming the correctly specified fluid , recently purchased, noting the typical small retail packaging as it has a limited shelf life once opened due to its hygroscopic nature.
The container should be kept tightly closed and unshaken as that will entrap air.
You can have someone press on the brakes and hold it. Then you loosen the bleeder valve a little to let very little fluid though and close it quickly. Give the command to the person to let go of the pedal and repeat. This way the pedal does not hit the floor and having you have to lift it off the floor with your hand.
Keep inching with opening and closing quickly and you will never induce air or run into a difficult bleed. Often times what happens with two man on one woman and one man bleeding is a loss of communication when to press and when to close which causes air to go back into the system. In a nutshell do not open the bleeder and then have the person press on the brakes as that would be bad.
I do not do any of that now. I gravity bleed which is the easiest method. Attach the clear plastic tube on the bleeder screw and undo the screw to where where fluid is flowing out slowly and thats it. If there are any bubbles in the line you can observe them as they make their way though the system and into the tube. Just make sure to top off. I always get a rock hard pedal this way and I can do it by myself, just takes a little longer but a lot less mess.
@Dev said:
"This way the pedal does not hit the floor and having you have to lift it off the floor with your hand".
Prior to my owning my 2 (2011) the last time I had need to bleed brakes was around '86, but I don't recall having to retrieve the brake pedal while bleeding on previous cars.
MrsJ has often helped with the pedal pushing on various cars over the years since the '60's and retrieving the pedal has not been necessary. Indeed, until this year that has been the case with my 2.
But, this year, I had acquired a one man bleeding system ( A length of rubber tubing with a lateral split and a blocked end) and so was bleeding solo and found that the pedal did stick down.
I used a length of cord looped around the pedal and gave that a tug ( was going to say a yank but thought better of it).
cheers for replies all.
Quote from: Joesson on August 4, 2021, 13:31Not mentioned thus far is the brake fluid. Assuming the correctly specified fluid , recently purchased, noting the typical small retail packaging as it has a limited shelf life once opened due to its hygroscopic nature.
The container should be kept tightly closed and unshaken as that will entrap air.
All above boxes ticked.
Quote from: Ardent on August 4, 2021, 16:49Quote from: Joesson on August 4, 2021, 13:31Not mentioned thus far is the brake fluid. Assuming the correctly specified fluid , recently purchased, noting the typical small retail packaging as it has a limited shelf life once opened due to its hygroscopic nature.
The container should be kept tightly closed and unshaken as that will entrap air.
All above boxes ticked.
I'm beginning to think that the OP has very sensitive feet!
Quote from: Joesson on August 4, 2021, 16:31@Dev said:
"This way the pedal does not hit the floor and having you have to lift it off the floor with your hand".
Prior to my owning my 2 (2011) the last time I had need to bleed brakes was around '86, but I don't recall having to retrieve the brake pedal while bleeding on previous cars.
MrsJ has often helped with the pedal pushing on various cars over the years since the '60's and retrieving the pedal has not been necessary. Indeed, until this year that has been the case with my 2.
But, this year, I had acquired a one man bleeding system ( A length of rubber tubing with a lateral split and a blocked end) and so was bleeding solo and found that the pedal did stick down.
I used a length of cord looped around the pedal and gave that a tug ( was going to say a yank but thought better of it).
There are many of these one man bleeder kits. I do not know the particular one you have but there are some that induce a vacuum to pull the fluid though. I had one of these and also had one that hooked up to my compressor to create a vacuum attached to a bottle. The problem I found with these is when you loosen the bleed screw the air can get past the threads of the bleeder.
I also had one that pressurized the master and had a bottle that fed fluid though the system. All you had to do is open the bleeders and it just comes out. The problem is it wastes fluid and can be messy.
I even tried a kind of bleeder with a one way check valve which was really nice but over time the ball in the valve corrode and locks up.
After looking at some Youtube videos on gravity bleeding I tried it and never looked back. All you need is a clear tube and a container to catch the fluid. Open the bleeder and wait for it to clear. No mess no fuss just easy.
Some people gravity bleed all four lines at the same time which is fast but I don't mind taking my time. It really doesn't take that long probably 5-7 minutes for each corner.
The problem with doing it the traditional way is coordinating with the person by the pedal. It is difficult to call out commands and just about every time someone does listen and messes up causing the pedal to drop to the floor.