I was talking to the Toyota AD this morning and asked what they would charge for an engine oil and filter change, £96.73, gulp.
Just had mine done so not needed but I thought I would ask while I had his attention.
Hour labour (and parts) I guess?
I would ask MattPerformance what he charges as I guess he's not that far from you?
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 23, 2021, 11:49I was talking to the Toyota AD this morning and asked what they would charge for an engine oil and filter change, £96.73, gulp.
Just had mine done so not needed but I thought I would ask while I had his attention.
Still about double what it would cost to do it yourself, but not horrendous compared to what a lot of places would Rob you.
£96.73
It's a simple oil change.
Any competent local mech could do that. No need to go all the way over to Matt either.
If parts supplied. I'd do it for £20.
A Mann oil filter from ECP £3.29
Bearing in mind Mr T would use his own oil, which we know is only specc'd as semi synth. Last tub I bought was about £18.
Ironically bought oil n filter today £24.02 all in.
You have to factor in the overheads with any professional business, even if it's a freshly qualified junior tech on around £12/hr it would cost the business probably £15 to pay them for that hour. Then you've got business rates, utilities and insurance etc plus the wages of everyone else involved such as the service desk receptionist and parts person.
I've just done a full brake replacement on the bus, discs and pads and fluid change.
Saved over £400 on the retail price of the parts and no labour fees, no idea what it would've been at a BMW main dealer but I expect around £1500 at least.
Not everyone CAN diy and although a lot of people do their own I wouldn't necessarily want them doing mine, it only takes a small mistake and your engine is fubar, try getting that sorted out by someone with no insurance etc.
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 23, 2021, 11:49I was talking to the Toyota AD this morning and asked what they would charge for an engine oil and filter change, £96.73, gulp.
Just had mine done so not needed but I thought I would ask while I had his attention.
I suppose the elephant in the room question is, how much did you pay to have it done?
Years ago I did an oil change on a civic, took off the old filter and saw that the sealing ring was on it and popped the new one on and filled her up to see all the oil flowing out under the car....
What I had seen was just dirty oil in the groove, the ring had stayed on the car so I had 2 on there which obviously didnt seal at all.
Had to get my bike out and ride a few miles to halfords for some more oil!
From my side dealerships quote high prices which I did not understand until it came to my attention by the car wizard who deals with many dealership that they sometimes quote high for somethings because they do not want to do the work since they make more by getting paid from the manufacture for warranty work. It is a tactic to turn you away so you go to an independent or you pay for their losses by having to service your car taking up valuable shop time.
Up until the last five years my local Toyota dealership would offer $20 oil changes which was ridiculously cheap. They did this to bring in customers so they can also go over the car to find things wrong with it so they could make money on additional and sometimes unnecessary repairs.
Quote from: Ardent on November 23, 2021, 18:18Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 23, 2021, 11:49I was talking to the Toyota AD this morning and asked what they would charge for an engine oil and filter change, £96.73, gulp.
Just had mine done so not needed but I thought I would ask while I had his attention.
I suppose the elephant in the room question is, how much did you pay to have it done?
I had a full service at ETS, £207.
https://www.edentyres.com/full-servicing/
I tend to recall now.
I also thought you were recommended an independent by a family member. So might have gone that route.
Quote from: Ardent on November 23, 2021, 20:42I tend to recall now.
I also thought you were recommended an independent by a family member. So might have gone that route.
The independent is a mobile mechanic and was booked up for quite a while and I wanted the work doing asap, impatient.
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 23, 2021, 20:54I wanted the work doing asap, impatient.
Good tradespeople always have waiting lists!
Quote from: paulj on November 23, 2021, 21:39Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 23, 2021, 20:54I wanted the work doing asap, impatient.
Good tradespeople always have waiting lists!
In the watch world which I am involved in a good watchmaker often has a waiting list of four or six months and sometimes longer and they are worth waiting for.
But my car is different I want to enjoy it now :)
Quote from: Dev on November 23, 2021, 18:23From my side dealerships quote high prices which I did not understand until it came to my attention by the car wizard who deals with many dealership that they sometimes quote high for somethings because they do not want to do the work since they make more by getting paid from the manufacture for warranty work. It is a tactic to turn you away so you go to an independent or you pay for their losses by having to service your car taking up valuable shop time.
Up until the last five years my local Toyota dealership would offer $20 oil changes which was ridiculously cheap. They did this to bring in customers so they can also go over the car to find things wrong with it so they could make money on additional and sometimes unnecessary repairs.
I don't know what it's like your side of the pond (though I have an insight, as I used to work for Sytner who are owned by Penske, and I saw a lot of financial data from the US), but your first paragraph just absolutely isn't the case in the UK.
I've been a Motor Trade (Dealership) accountant for nearly two decades, and I can say categorically that the highest workshop margin is absolutely in retail work, and the lowest margin is in warranty work.
Service departments do not quote inflated prices to turn away work. Service departments will *never* turn away retail work. They don't make up the prices at all. It's done on a matrix.
Quote from: Alex Knight on November 23, 2021, 23:59Quote from: Dev on November 23, 2021, 18:23From my side dealerships quote high prices which I did not understand until it came to my attention by the car wizard who deals with many dealership that they sometimes quote high for somethings because they do not want to do the work since they make more by getting paid from the manufacture for warranty work. It is a tactic to turn you away so you go to an independent or you pay for their losses by having to service your car taking up valuable shop time.
Up until the last five years my local Toyota dealership would offer $20 oil changes which was ridiculously cheap. They did this to bring in customers so they can also go over the car to find things wrong with it so they could make money on additional and sometimes unnecessary repairs.
I don't know what it's like your side of the pond (though I have an insight, as I used to work for Sytner who are owned by Penske, and I saw a lot of financial data from the US), but your first paragraph just absolutely isn't the case in the UK.
I've been a Motor Trade (Dealership) accountant for nearly two decades, and I can say categorically that the highest workshop margin is absolutely in retail work, and the lowest margin is in warranty work.
Service departments do not quote inflated prices to turn away work. Service departments will *never* turn away retail work. They don't make up the prices at all. It's done on a matrix.
I don't know myself but it is what the Car Wizard said in one of his videos for some of the jobs that are highly inflated where an independent is 1/3 the cost.
The dealerships here very in cost every time I get a quote for work or even parts as it seems to be more dealer independent.
Quote from: Alex Knight on November 23, 2021, 23:59Quote from: Dev on November 23, 2021, 18:23From my side dealerships quote high prices which I did not understand until it came to my attention by the car wizard who deals with many dealership that they sometimes quote high for somethings because they do not want to do the work since they make more by getting paid from the manufacture for warranty work. It is a tactic to turn you away so you go to an independent or you pay for their losses by having to service your car taking up valuable shop time.
Up until the last five years my local Toyota dealership would offer $20 oil changes which was ridiculously cheap. They did this to bring in customers so they can also go over the car to find things wrong with it so they could make money on additional and sometimes unnecessary repairs.
I don't know what it's like your side of the pond (though I have an insight, as I used to work for Sytner who are owned by Penske, and I saw a lot of financial data from the US), but your first paragraph just absolutely isn't the case in the UK.
I've been a Motor Trade (Dealership) accountant for nearly two decades, and I can say categorically that the highest workshop margin is absolutely in retail work, and the lowest margin is in warranty work.
Service departments do not quote inflated prices to turn away work. Service departments will *never* turn away retail work. They don't make up the prices at all. It's done on a matrix.
I do believe there are ways though.
@jvanzyl could tell you a lovely tale of his old family car, which I can vouch for, of ways that a dealership "inflates" prices.
Not by inflating the prices themselves, but by engineering the processes in such a way that they get the most out of every customer they legally can.
Toyota is surprisingly fair/honest. Look at the workshop manuals and it's a case of finding the simplest solution and building out from there.
VAG dealerships on the other hand... Just have a look if you can. "car won't go into gear with auto box"... Step 1 - check for codes. Step 2 - replace entire Mechatronic unit at ridiculous 4-Figure cost... Surprise, it didn't fix the issue,.. Step 3 - check wiring. Oh, well, what do you know.. That did the trick! That'll be 4k please. For a 200gbp fix.
I'm sure there are honest dealerships.
I just haven't found one yet.
Quote from: Dev on November 23, 2021, 18:23From my side dealerships quote high prices which I did not understand until it came to my attention by the car wizard who deals with many dealership that they sometimes quote high for somethings because they do not want to do the work since they make more by getting paid from the manufacture for warranty work. It is a tactic to turn you away so you go to an independent or you pay for their losses by having to service your car taking up valuable shop time.
Up until the last five years my local Toyota dealership would offer $20 oil changes which was ridiculously cheap. They did this to bring in customers so they can also go over the car to find things wrong with it so they could make money on additional and sometimes unnecessary repairs.
This is spot on. I used to work in the management team at Mr Clutch. Some jobs had an extra fee built in because even though the hours were calculated there were always problems with them. The branch managers would also overprice where they thought it was necessary to keep bad jobs out of the workshop, particularly a busy site smashing out quick jobs all day.
There were one or two smarter franchisees though that had juniors doing the basics at cheap rates to find the other work.
I don't think £100 is that bad for a dealer price, I'm sure my old BMW was £300 just for oil, filter and inspection and that was 12 years ago.
You should have had them at Buttercups, we could have drained it whilst we had a coffee lol.
What I like about Toyota compared to other flashy brands is they are very easy to repair and most of the time they do not need frequent repair. If you have to buy parts they are relatively cheap and their luxury line uses many of the same Toyota parts. Despite all of this there are many on the road over here that are neglected with general maintenance and they keep on running.
Just an additional anecdote...
Mother in law came in yesterday and asked about brake pads.
Their car had just been in for service and they said the pads needed changing. Said that if she doesn't, it ll need doing by January at the latest.
Not wanting to put herself at risk, she complied.
A bunch of cash later...
On the receipt it said that the pads were 40% worn.
Now... I'm all for preventative maintenance but... They barely drive that car and who throws away stuff after using 40% of it.
Dealers.... Sheesh..
Quote from: shnazzle on November 25, 2021, 15:15Just an additional anecdote...
Mother in law came in yesterday and asked about brake pads.
Their car had just been in for service and they said the pads needed changing. Said that if she doesn't, it ll need doing by January at the latest.
Not wanting to put herself at risk, she complied.
A bunch of cash later...
On the receipt it said that the pads were 40% worn.
Now... I'm all for preventative maintenance but... They barely drive that car and who throws away stuff after using 40% of it.
Dealers.... Sheesh..
Over here we have many stories like this. The dealers as I mentioned are a franchise and therefore somewhat independent and have all kinds of schemes to scare you into unnecessary services and repairs.
Each one is different and therefore you need to shop around.
I cant even catch a break with the independents as they tell me that they have to do a multi point inspection before they can give me a quote on the work I want done. This makes it nearly impossible to shop around.
It always leads me to roll up my sleeves and get it done because the hassle of dropping it off and dealing with all the nonsense is not worth the trouble.
Quote from: shnazzle on November 25, 2021, 15:15Just an additional anecdote...
Mother in law came in yesterday and asked about brake pads.
Their car had just been in for service and they said the pads needed changing. Said that if she doesn't, it ll need doing by January at the latest.
Not wanting to put herself at risk, she complied.
A bunch of cash later...
On the receipt it said that the pads were 40% worn.
Now... I'm all for preventative maintenance but... They barely drive that car and who throws away stuff after using 40% of it.
Dealers.... Sheesh..
Would the Dealer have done that to you Patrick? I think not! They are out of order in so many ways and should be advised of the error of their ways.
You do know that a whole service kit including oil and wipers is only c.£56 for our cars with OEM Toyota parts from a dealership?
Some dealerships DO overprice certain jobs because they do not want the hassle of difficult long jobs that may block out a lift for a long time. They are looking mostly for quick churn with a reasonable profit margin.
My Avensis has a full main dealer service history from the same dealership.
July 2020 it went in for a intermediate service and MOT, I was told and it was in writing that the pads were 5mm and 3mm and that they would need changing on the next service.
July 2021 it went in for full service and MOT, I budgeted for the service and brakes, when I picked it up I only had the service to pay, I asked about the brakes and they said fine and showed me the paper work they were 7mm and 5mm, happy days.
But this started to niggle me, how come after 10K miles my pads had grown in size ?
So I got in touch with the dealership, told them the "problem" and they booked the car back in to be checked.
After checking the pads were indeed 7mm and 5mm so dident want changing, no apology just one of those things and that on an intermediate service they just estimate the size but on a full service they measure.
It does make you think should you trust anything they say ?
Quote from: carolineasb on November 25, 2021, 19:14You do know that a whole service kit including oil and wipers is only c.£56 for our cars with OEM Toyota parts from a dealership?
Some dealerships DO overprice certain jobs because they do not want the hassle of difficult long jobs that may block out a lift for a long time. They are looking mostly for quick churn with a reasonable profit margin.
Can you just go to Toyota and ask for a full service kit or do you have to specify each item ?
I have had to request each individually.
Oil, oil filter, air filter and sump plug washer.
Plugs I got online.
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 25, 2021, 19:55My Avensis has a full main dealer service history from the same dealership.
July 2020 it went in for a intermediate service and MOT, I was told and it was in writing that the pads were 5mm and 3mm and that they would need changing on the next service.
July 2021 it went in for full service and MOT, I budgeted for the service and brakes, when I picked it up I only had the service to pay, I asked about the brakes and they said fine and showed me the paper work they were 7mm and 5mm, happy days.
But this started to niggle me, how come after 10K miles my pads had grown in size ?
So I got in touch with the dealership, told them the "problem" and they booked the car back in to be checked.
After checking the pads were indeed 7mm and 5mm so dident want changing, no apology just one of those things and that on an intermediate service they just estimate the size but on a full service they measure.
It does make you think should you trust anything they say ?
In that particular case, while they did give you incorrect information, I suggest they exonerated themselves by not just replacing the pads, as your anticipation. That does show a good level of honesty if not of estimation.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on November 23, 2021, 17:50You have to factor in the overheads with any professional business, even if it's a freshly qualified junior tech on around £12/hr it would cost the business probably £15 to pay them for that hour. Then you've got business rates, utilities and insurance etc plus the wages of everyone else involved such as the service desk receptionist and parts person.
I think 25% mark up (£12 -> £15) is pretty tight, my guess would be 50% on top minimum. You have of course got business rates but also building / workshop maintenance (and, ultimately, major refurb or replacement) plus a host of other things such as pension contributions, training, holidays and of course profit, otherwise they won't keep going.
Are ADs not under a duty of care to inspect cars and make owners aware of any apparent defects / issues (perhaps all garages are but ADs take this a bit more seriously because they want to avoid a major argument).
Re prices / costs, in some industries where you ask someone for a price for a piece of work, as a general enquiry, this is the starting point. "I'm now in a position to award the work, what can you do to make your original price more attractive?". If you don't ask, you don't get (though Marks & Spencers don't seem to understand this, but it does discourage Mrs G from taking me to M&S!).
If it's an hour's work, normally charged out at a technician's rate, and they can get the apprentice to do it with a final (2 minute?) check over by the technician then the AD is very happy and in the money! They may be prepared to move slightly, it's a competitive market especially if you're an AD. Of course as mentioned by
@carolineasb, ADs are probably not chasing the oil and filter market.
At the same time I asked how much for a full service, £350 and the use of a courtesy car.
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 26, 2021, 10:26At the same time I asked how much for a full service, £350 and the use of a courtesy car.
The first service I had on my 2 on 02 June 2011 for a 90K Service (@53703 Miles), with a courtesy collection and delivery, inc. VAT that was £150.00
I then took on a Service Plan @ £9.75 a month.
In 2012 extras including 2 wiper blades, brake fluid a grommet screw, and clip amounted to £60.11 including brake bleed and fitting ancillaries.
On 12 June 2012 I also paid £94.99 for a coolant change.
In 2013 a Planned service and advisory new Oxygen sensor £177.35 (Bought this at £69.99 and a spanner via www and saved £100.
In 2014 a Planned Service and advisories: auxiliary belt perished, slight leak around water pump, and as usual car washed and vacuumed FOC.
As in between times, following the coolant change, I had replaced the leaking radiator, that they had not found leaking , and bought a litre of LL coolant to replace that lost and fitted the auxiliary belt, I came to realise that the Planned Service amounted only to an oil and filter change and a car wash and vac. Everything else was " Inspected" anything needing doing was an advisory at a price that was not acceptable to me.
Since then I have done my own oil and filter changes and inspections.
NB The "leaking pump", to me, shows no sign of leaking and is still OE. The replacement blew a plug and dumped the Toyota LL coolant on the local bypass. I refilled with no name long life.
Coolant, Power steering were replaced with Ravenol products together with oil and filter in Spring this year, 2021.
In short, I do my own oil/ filter change and inspections and find and fix any advisories.
If I were unable to do this myself I would find a local independent, likely the one that does my MOT, the owner having expressed a wish for first refusal when I want to sell.
I am not totally averse to Main Dealers, I bought my daily from a privately owned Dealer. I believe I have had honest servicing and advice from them . The workshop manager is the son of the MD of the Company, recently they collect and deliver, and have always included Ford (AA I believe) Breakdown and Recovery. This I think is a very good value benefit, my daily is a 2011 and approaching 100k miles.
Quote from: Joesson on November 26, 2021, 11:14my daily is a 2011 and approaching 100k miles.
Same as mine :)
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 25, 2021, 19:57Can you just go to Toyota and ask for a full service kit or do you have to specify each item ?
Think I asked for full service kit and they listed what was in the kit for the price which I checked with hubby who is a mechanic. Obviously it would be even cheaper without wipers but we just decided to swap ours for the upcoming winter. I think the deal is you buy the kit and the oil is free.
We also got air conditioning parts at the same garage for roughly the same price as on various internet pages but from the garage we were getting the OEM part with easier returns etc if needed than buying from the net. Next thing we are likely to do on the cars (apart from a trip to Swansea for new roof) is suspension refresh, however, Toyota prices are far too high for that so we will be looking elsewhere.
We always check the Toyota dealer price first and then check internet etc so you have a starting price instead of just guessing what a good price is.
Our Toyota dealer is an independent garage as I would never buy from one of the UK national companies as I much prefer the "family" feel of the garage.
Done mine this morning
20211128_100600.jpg
Quote from: Ardent on November 28, 2021, 10:59Done mine this morning
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I like those little ramps Jason :)
Quote from: carolineasb on November 28, 2021, 08:39Next thing we are likely to do on the cars (apart from a trip to Swansea for new roof) is suspension refresh, however, Toyota prices are far too high for that so we will be looking elsewhere.
We always check the Toyota dealer price first and then check internet etc so you have a starting price instead of just guessing what a good price is.
Its a shame we can't do a group buy, I would be in and we would perhaps get a better deal if more than one set being bought ?
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 28, 2021, 16:41Quote from: carolineasb on November 28, 2021, 08:39Next thing we are likely to do on the cars (apart from a trip to Swansea for new roof) is suspension refresh, however, Toyota prices are far too high for that so we will be looking elsewhere.
We always check the Toyota dealer price first and then check internet etc so you have a starting price instead of just guessing what a good price is.
Its a shame we can't do a group buy, I would be in and we would perhaps get a better deal if more than one set being bought ?
TCBparts.co.uk ( often best to phone) was, for a long time an affiliate on here, that is no longer the case. Now he has again been overlooked/ not considered so can perhaps understand why that is the case.
Quote from: Joesson on November 28, 2021, 17:01TCBparts.co.uk ( often best to phone) was, for a long time an affiliate on here, that is no longer the case.
Did not know that. Still trading I take it, just not an affiliate?
Quote from: TheTigerUK on November 28, 2021, 16:04I like those little ramps Jason :)
Caravan leveling ramps apparently.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353685749259?hash=item5259503e0b:g:A3IAAOSwRzxhShAq
Quote from: Ardent on November 28, 2021, 18:31Quote from: Joesson on November 28, 2021, 17:01TCBparts.co.uk ( often best to phone) was, for a long time an affiliate on here, that is no longer the case.
Did not know that. Still trading I take it, just not an affiliate?
Exactly. I suggest always worth a phone call when you need a particular item, you get to speak with the Boss, Paul, who seems to know about what he is selling. No guessing on your own part if the part number or whatever is correct.
Remember he was helpful when we were discussing the merits of replacing in total or rebushing of the front control arms.
[/quote]
TCBparts.co.uk ( often best to phone) was, for a long time an affiliate on here, that is no longer the case. Now he has again been overlooked/ not considered so can perhaps understand why that is the case.
[/quote]
I shall bear them in mind as well, thanks.