MR2 Roadster Owners Club

Hi all- would it but possible to get some time with anyone on hear to try and fine tune the map on my ecu master black so that it stands a better chance of getting through an MOT?

Basically a screen sharing call via zoom or something where you can see the map and provide input on what I can/shouldnt alter to try and improve things?

Cheers!
John

Have you tried running it in auto tune once it's warm?

Let it idle, run auto tune, and rev the car up to where they test for emissions.

Do it for 5 minutes or so.

Then apply the auto figures to the fuel table. (I do it at the 50% value so it's small increments)

Then highlight the surrounding areas of the map,right click and interpolate to smooth the map out.

Rinse and repeat.

Always save your original map down before making any changes.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on August 20, 2024, 21:29Have you tried running it in auto tune once it's warm?

Let it idle, run auto tune, and rev the car up to where they test for emissions.

Do it for 5 minutes or so.

Then apply the auto figures to the fuel table. (I do it at the 50% value so it's small increments)

Then highlight the surrounding areas of the map,right click and interpolate to smooth the map out.

Rinse and repeat.

Always save your original map down before making any changes.

I have not tried this (didn't know about it) but it sounds ideal- I shall do some googling on how to actually do it.. might pop back into your PMs with a question or two on the actual implementation of this exercise when you say things like "at the 50% value level".. thanks very much again for the pointers!

Quote from: jvanzyl on August 20, 2024, 22:02I have not tried this (didn't know about it) but it sounds ideal- I shall do some googling on how to actually do it.. might pop back into your PMs with a question or two on the actual implementation of this exercise when you say things like "at the 50% value level".. thanks very much again for the pointers!

No worries, yeah drop me a pm when you've had a play.

It's pretty intuitive to use.

So first attempts at tuning started this morning! Watched a few videos on it last night.
The clear point of failure with this approach is if the initial target tables are not setup sufficiently well enough... I noticed for example that the injectors are setup to be 500cc even though they are the 600 odd whatever's..
Any way the car is significantly closer to the target lambdas than it was before at least at the idling to 3.5k rev range at stand still..

Don't change that injector CC value as it will totally put the whole thing out of tune. It does mean that all your VE values are total skewed which is very poor practice. There is only 2 areas of the table that matter for the MOT. Look for the cells that it uses when you hold the throttle to get it to rev between 2000 and 3000 rpm at standstill. And secondly the area where it idles naturally. The aim is to get your wide band to hit Lambda 1.0 to 1.01. Make sure you have no exhaust leaks, put your hand over the tail pipe and listen for leaks, leaks are your enemy and will total screw your emissions targets and test result. You don't need to use the autotuner for this, just manually set your target lambda correctly for these areas, then adjust your VE table to suit, watching your lambda value and your correction value. These cells will not effect your driving tune as the load is nothing.

Quote from: simonrobinson on August 21, 2024, 13:56Don't change that injector CC value as it will totally put the whole thing out of tune. It does mean that all your VE values are total skewed which is very poor practice. There is only 2 areas of the table that matter for the MOT. Look for the cells that it uses when you hold the throttle to get it to rev between 2000 and 3000 rpm at standstill. And secondly the area where it idles naturally. The aim is to get your wide band to hit Lambda 1.0 to 1.01. Make sure you have no exhaust leaks, put your hand over the tail pipe and listen for leaks, leaks are your enemy and will total screw your emissions targets and test result. You don't need to use the autotuner for this, just manually set your target lambda correctly for these areas, then adjust your VE table to suit, watching your lambda value and your correction value. These cells will not effect your driving tune as the load is nothing.

Thanks for the pointers- didn't realise you were so close! I'm over in Kings Langley. My exhaust is v-banded together but will check when cold.

After a fair bit of puttering around today below is the summary of changes I've made to the fueling table:

(https://i.ibb.co/YdWY8Qf/IMG-7381.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YdWY8Qf)

And here is the target lambda table

(https://i.ibb.co/h2pDqxn/IMG-7382.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h2pDqxn)

Anyone got any comments on what level to set the transient to? Mine's currently on 500ms.. most videos I see have it down to 100ms..

forum.png

Which is the basic cat test and MOT testers are not very good at hitting target rpms.

QuoteCO up to 0.2% at fast idle (2,500rpm to 3,000rpm)
HC up to 200ppm at fast idle (2,500rpm to 3,000rpm)
Lambda between 0.97 and 1.03 at fast idle (2,500rpm to 3,000rpm)
CO up to 0.3% at idle (450rpm to 1,500rpm)

Your lambda targets are too rich 0.94 & 0.95 in the MOT tested area in your table.
Remember the MOT is stationary, you can fix this tuned area parked up.
It needs to be targeting and achieving a proper stoichiometric mixture = AFR 1.00
This means you get a complete burnt, with no left over HC's (fuel) and no CO (monoxides)

Use the log graph in ecumaster, graph you lambda and rpm. Do yourself a dummy MOT test. Idle for 30 seconds, then hold 2500rpm for 30 seconds. You want to see the lambda graph holding a rock solid 1.0 without bouncing about.

Quote from: simonrobinson on August 21, 2024, 13:56Don't change that injector CC value as it will totally put the whole thing out of tune. It does mean that all your VE values are total skewed which is very poor practice. There is only 2 areas of the table that matter for the MOT. Look for the cells that it uses when you hold the throttle to get it to rev between 2000 and 3000 rpm at standstill. And secondly the area where it idles naturally. The aim is to get your wide band to hit Lambda 1.0 to 1.01. Make sure you have no exhaust leaks, put your hand over the tail pipe and listen for leaks, leaks are your enemy and will total screw your emissions targets and test result. You don't need to use the autotuner for this, just manually set your target lambda correctly for these areas, then adjust your VE table to suit, watching your lambda value and your correction value. These cells will not effect your driving tune as the load is nothing.

Good comments there Simon, I'd only suggested using auto tune, if Jay wasn't confident in making changes directly to the fuel map himself. (In terms of the figures required)

But like you say, it's pretty self explanatory once you get going.

Easiest way like you say, change the cells highlighted whilst idling, I like to highlight the surrounding cells too to stop any interpolation from moving one cells too much and to try and smooth the transition out that way.

Good work, J keep going.

Hi both @Gaz2405 & @simonrobinson i really appreciate the input!
What you are saying makes sense with regards to what the theoretical process should be to achieve the right values for MOT... what I'm wondering is WHY the target values have been set this way?

Surely there must be a reason why RRR did this, I even specifically stated that I needed this as a daily driver and would be looking to get it through an MOT.

As it stands I think I'll be fine tuning the current map and then building a map that I will call "peoplescar" that has the correct lambda targets and looking to load that upon arrival at the mot Center..

Quote from: jvanzyl on August 22, 2024, 09:26Hi both @Gaz2405 & @simonrobinson i really appreciate the input!
What you are saying makes sense with regards to what the theoretical process should be to achieve the right values for MOT... what I'm wondering is WHY the target values have been set this way?

Surely there must be a reason why RRR did this, I even specifically stated that I needed this as a daily driver and would be looking to get it through an MOT.

As it stands I think I'll be fine tuning the current map and then building a map that I will call "peoplescar" that has the correct lambda targets and looking to load that upon arrival at the mot Center..

RRR, are known for giving a good WOT tune, but sometimes not getting the drivability spot on. As that takes a little more time.

To get a reasonable all round calibration I think is at least 3 full days work. Doing all the WOT stuff to achieve MBT via ignition, fuel and vvt is a couple of hours dyno time if hardware is working good, its the fun stuff that gets people excited. Now the reality! Cruising areas, tip in, transients are almost endlessly time consuming, but that separates a good tune from the rest, and is best done on the road. What makes all this more viable is accurate calibration of intake air temp sensor, coolant senor, tps, crank trigger drift calibration, wastegate boost control and injector flow cc's which all in can be a days work in itself. The last icing on the cake is the cold start and warm up, you only get one shot in the morning at tuning that, and its seasonally different, I admit mine isn't great below 5 deg C.

Just had a flick though your daily commute smile build thread, looks good, well done, needs an MOT asap for daily boost smiles while the weather is better! When you have rich lambda and excessive monoxides it points toward excessive fuelling - looking at your target lambda table v's your MOT test result sheet its hitting its target very well. And that is your problem, the target is too rich. This is not a Cat fault as your HC's are passing OK - well only just within the 200ppm but that is due to running excessively rich target AFR. Truth be known pretty much any car tuned correctly will pass the standard emissions gas test without a catalytic converter even present, only to really fail due to cat being visually not present.

This is my target lambda table on my ecumaster black, but realise its a naturally aspirated engine. Only the two right columns are used to make any power with an NA engine.

(https://i.ibb.co/qrhDNDg/mytargetlambda.png) (https://ibb.co/qrhDNDg)

I would suggest something like this should be where you need to be for MOT requirements, but have a little test to sanity check it obviously, and for new players never assume a wideband sensor reading is real world accurate. Injector fuel quantity delivery differences and exhaust leaks skew wideband readings along with duff sensors.

(https://i.ibb.co/5kfg2yk/IMG-7382.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5kfg2yk)

Keeping your target AFR's to 1.00 in areas where you are cruising the car about in traffic and steady speeds will wildly gain you better MPG's, possibly beating a stock NA 1zz as the turbo yields you better thermal efficiency. The OEMs target cruising at 15.5:1 being 1.05 lambda for fuel economy and CO2 emissions. Meanwhile running excessively rich in lower load areas cause excessive fuel on the cylinder walls leading to oil dilution and ring wear, along with quickly fouling your wideband sensor which destroys its accuracy. Daily driver realities v's race car WOT tuners! You've got this far with the build, now its time you get hands on with the tune and you'll be wiser for it. Studying logs is very easy on ecumaster and is an investment for reliability. P.S Complement to the charge cooler, welding and flip flops.

@simonrobinson

That's a fantastic post.

Chapeau 🎩

Quote from: Alex Knight on August 22, 2024, 23:12@simonrobinson

That's a fantastic post.

Chapeau 🎩

That is an indeed excellent post @simonrobinson ! I'm looking forward to mapping this further early next week when I get a chance! Your post was really helpful.

Tried again with the MOT.
Basic result is that the CO is too high despite the wrapping of the mid pipe, and despite it sitting at about lambda 1 (according to my Wideband).

Additionally it seems my Wideband sensor is off by about 0.06.. compared to the MOT test centre sniffer which doesn't help things.

I welcome comments on what to do.

Bah.. will post the actually readings when I have them in my hand.

before it was wrapped cat and changed tune:
(https://i.ibb.co/h902QKx/IMG-7444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h902QKx)

After wrapping and tune change:

(https://i.ibb.co/6nzXybN/IMG-7442.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6nzXybN)

Lambda measured at the MOT is 1.269 = Which is 18:1 AFR! That by oxygen measurement is insanely dangerously lean. But your HC's are very high, which is unburnt fuel. Those two together is impossible if the combustion/exhaust is sealed and true, how can combustion have unburnt oxygen and unburnt fuel, think about it. Maybe you have an exhaust gas leak which is causing oxygen ingress in to the exhaust? Maybe you have poor ignition/misfire which is leading to unburnt fuel and oxygen? Was the car tested with a cold or hot engine? Ideally you want to get it to full temperature then have it tested immediately as cold start enrichment will be against you. Either way you need to solve this as I wouldn't trust your ECU's closed loop corrections until you get trustworthy lambda values.

Quote from: simonrobinson on August 27, 2024, 23:34Lambda measured at the MOT is 1.269 = Which is 18:1 AFR! That by oxygen measurement is insanely dangerously lean. But your HC's are very high, which is unburnt fuel. Those two together is impossible if the combustion/exhaust is sealed and true, how can combustion have unburnt oxygen and unburnt fuel, think about it. Maybe you have an exhaust gas leak which is causing oxygen ingress in to the exhaust? Maybe you have poor ignition/misfire which is leading to unburnt fuel and oxygen? Was the car tested with a cold or hot engine? Ideally you want to get it to full temperature then have it tested immediately as cold start enrichment will be against you. Either way you need to solve this as I wouldn't trust your ECU's closed loop corrections until you get trustworthy lambda values.

Right - good points all round. Car was up to temp. I've ordered some high temp silicone gasket sealer which will be liberally applied to the v-bands as they are where the leak is likely to be at. Thanks for the guidance!

Exhaust leaks at idle create far less of a venturi effect so the air ingress is minimal thus the wideband measurements are less skewed. But as you rev it the gas speed inside the pipe vastly increases so the scavenging of air/oxygen into the exhaust is far greater. Dual tailpipe exhaust systems can screw with the lambda reading on MOT test equipment but will not cause your excessive HC's.

Certainly put your hand over your tail pipe while its running and listen, do this test to a few other cars of friend and family in your life. Listen to how they behave, a good exhaust builds pressure quickly and the hissing leaks are very minimal. If the exhaust is sealed properly the engine will eventually stall with your hand over the tail pipe.

If V bands are leaking you can get annealed copper gaskets for them but there is no standardisation of V band sizing. Warped ones can sometimes be ground flat too with effort and patience. Silicon sealants tend to burn away pretty quickly.

Quote from: simonrobinson on August 28, 2024, 11:16Exhaust leaks at idle create far less of a venturi effect so the air ingress is minimal thus the wideband measurements are less skewed. But as you rev it the gas speed inside the pipe vastly increases so the scavenging of air/oxygen into the exhaust is far greater. Dual tailpipe exhaust systems can screw with the lambda reading on MOT test equipment but will not cause your excessive HC's.

Certainly put your hand over your tail pipe while its running and listen, do this test to a few other cars of friend and family in your life. Listen to how they behave, a good exhaust builds pressure quickly and the hissing leaks are very minimal. If the exhaust is sealed properly the engine will eventually stall with your hand over the tail pipe.

If V bands are leaking you can get annealed copper gaskets for them but there is no standardisation of V band sizing. Warped ones can sometimes be ground flat too with effort and patience. Silicon sealants tend to burn away pretty quickly.

Right. Massive exhaust leak confirmed at the turbo v-band. Will try and resolve this one and then see if there are any others.

If it has been tuned with an exhaust leak which was causing air ingress on the tuning session, once the leak is fixed you may look at your logs to find that the whole tune is overly rich as the lambda readings used while tuning contained rogue oxygen. Once you fix the leak, take it for a drive then attach your log files and tune file as I would give you an uneducated and unqualified opinion if you desire. After all the infinite room full of monkeys with typewriters would write the perfect tune eventually.

Attached is a log from one of my cars showing the purple line "EGO Correction (%)" value though gear pulls. 100% is zero correction from the VE tables tune, while say 105% is adding 5% correction thus the VE table is too skinny, and if it were 90% correction then the VE table is too fat. Looking at the 4th gear pull highlighted in blue, getting that green Lambda line to sit at flat as possible at the target is the aim of the game while the corrections are as close to 100% as possible, preferably sitting below 100% because its better to take away fuel than rely on closed loop corrections to add it in with delayed response.
(https://i.ibb.co/D5VdQNc/EGO-correction-log-with-gear-pulls.png) (https://ibb.co/D5VdQNc)

Thank you- the only thing I could find at Halfords this evening was their Holts Fire gum stuff... might work.

I get what you're saying with the chart, it's a very helpful description.
Hopefully I'll get a chance tomorrow to see what has actually happened at the V-band..

You just need your V band to seal, use a grinding stone to get them flat as they warp pretty badly when you weld them. If you use any fire sealants that cure like a ceramic they will not only crack to bits but also the excess ends up trapped in the catalytic honeycomb where it erodes it away remarkably quickly.

Quote from: simonrobinson on August 30, 2024, 17:29You just need your V band to seal, use a grinding stone to get them flat as they warp pretty badly when you weld them. If you use any fire sealants that cure like a ceramic they will not only crack to bits but also the excess ends up trapped in the catalytic honeycomb where it erodes it away remarkably quickly.

Got it. I do have a nice big grinding stone, however my v-bands are the male female type so I'll see what I can actually affect.

I'm hoping it's a case of them just not being lined up properly..

Quote from: jvanzyl on August 30, 2024, 21:11Got it. I do have a nice big grinding stone, however my v-bands are the male female type so I'll see what I can actually affect.

I'm hoping it's a case of them just not being lined up properly..

Did you tack them in place before welding in the bends etc? Could be that the bends are putting stress into the V band faces as the system moves with the engine, especially if the flexi isn't big enough or not in the right position.

Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 31, 2024, 10:03Did you tack them in place before welding in the bends etc? Could be that the bends are putting stress into the V band faces as the system moves with the engine, especially if the flexi isn't big enough or not in the right position.

When I get a chance to work on it I'll take lots of pics.. I've got a decent size flexi in there.. but the whole thing is under tension I think..

RIGHT!
No more exhaust leak, and I've spent the past while trying to get the tune right. At higher revs I'm confident it now works correctly but now at the lower revs I'm thinking it keeps sitting to too lean despite fiddling forever trying to make it sit at 1.0 continuously.. it seems to wonder into 1.04 and higher the whole time..

Quote from: simonrobinson on August 28, 2024, 18:00If it has been tuned with an exhaust leak which was causing air ingress on the tuning session, once the leak is fixed you may look at your logs to find that the whole tune is overly rich as the lambda readings used while tuning contained rogue oxygen. Once you fix the leak, take it for a drive then attach your log files and tune file as I would give you an uneducated and unqualified opinion if you desire. After all the infinite room full of monkeys with typewriters would write the perfect tune eventually.

Attached is a log from one of my cars showing the purple line "EGO Correction (%)" value though gear pulls. 100% is zero correction from the VE tables tune, while say 105% is adding 5% correction thus the VE table is too skinny, and if it were 90% correction then the VE table is too fat. Looking at the 4th gear pull highlighted in blue, getting that green Lambda line to sit at flat as possible at the target is the aim of the game while the corrections are as close to 100% as possible, preferably sitting below 100% because its better to take away fuel than rely on closed loop corrections to add it in with delayed response.
(https://i.ibb.co/D5VdQNc/EGO-correction-log-with-gear-pulls.png) (https://ibb.co/D5VdQNc)

Oh and I've been trying to recreate your lovely log.. but I cannot find EGO correction in the EMU black software... and I've got a sneaky suspicion it's only in the Pro.. is there any other log value that I can use instead?

To look at your logs I have had to upgrade my EMU software from 2.138 to 2.169 and that is why you cannot find EGO correction. "EGO correction replaced by Short term trim strategy." is in the version control of ECU master. So the magic datalogging value is now Short term trim corr.

It appears they have changed lambda target strategy but anyway I digress! And now it only kicks in outside of tickover.

During your idle it is not using any sort of fuel trim, that sits solid at 100%, it is though using "idle ign. correction" to hamper or excite the engine speed to achieve your desired idle speed. The ignition is set to 8.5 degrees on your table at the idle spot. But its pulling it to about 5 degrees to achieve your idle.

Now I think, if you mess with your throttle body stop, or get your idle control valve working it would hit idle control better, making your idle AFR not wobble about. But this is a world of last minute MOT fixes! It appears your idle control motor is not doing anything, its just staying at 42% / 137 steps. Maybe it does not work very well or is not setup. And thus ECUMaster is falling back to ignition retarding/advancing to chase the target idle.

You could just manually change your ignition timing in the idle cells to 5 degrees to see if that stabilises you. And your target idle is set to 950rpm while you are only idling at 900rpm, so its trying to hit a target it cannot reach. Maybe you should change the warm "idle target rpm" to 900rpm.

A combination of changing the target speed to what it can achieve, with the timing it uses to achieve it might stabilise your ARF's allowing you to tune that better. Its just hunting about in PID loops trying to achieve the impossible at the moment.


Now for your fast idle tests which are pretty good. You are hitting 110% Short term trim corr. for it to hit your target of 1.00 lambda, it needs more fuel in these cells. Now that one line has been increased to 41 / 42.... its needs the table to be smooth, can't have the values above and below it going up and down!

(https://i.ibb.co/KGp21xC/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-21-30-56.png) (https://ibb.co/KGp21xC) (https://i.ibb.co/tBXPbSY/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-21-37-34.png) (https://ibb.co/tBXPbSY)

The aim of the game is for your VE table to get you close to bang on to your target lambda. Using closed loop correction factor to get you on target is not cool and will always lead to wobbly feedback loops. Try that sort of tuning strategy on WOT under boost and you are playing dangerous games, remarkably modern ecus manage to fill the gap pretty quickly, but its seriously uncool.

Your idle is not just AFR unstable, but its lean too, and that will currently get you a fail if the measurement is true. The block outlined below needs to be set to the same value as the speed and vacuum wobble about at idle, this I'd probably start about 36.0 maybe, then see how that goes.

(https://i.ibb.co/qnbTVrs/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-22-07-30.png) (https://ibb.co/qnbTVrs)

Quote from: simonrobinson on September  9, 2024, 21:54To look at your logs I have had to upgrade my EMU software from 2.138 to 2.169 and that is why you cannot find EGO correction. "EGO correction replaced by Short term trim strategy." is in the version control of ECU master. So the magic datalogging value is now Short term trim corr.

It appears they have changed lambda target strategy but anyway I digress! And now it only kicks in outside of tickover.

During your idle it is not using any sort of fuel trim, that sits solid at 100%, it is though using "idle ign. correction" to hamper or excite the engine speed to achieve your desired idle speed. The ignition is set to 8.5 degrees on your table at the idle spot. But its pulling it to about 5 degrees to achieve your idle.

Now I think, if you mess with your throttle body stop, or get your idle control valve working it would hit idle control better, making your idle AFR not wobble about. But this is a world of last minute MOT fixes! It appears your idle control motor is not doing anything, its just staying at 42% / 137 steps. Maybe it does not work very well or is not setup. And thus ECUMaster is falling back to ignition retarding/advancing to chase the target idle.

You could just manually change your ignition timing in the idle cells to 5 degrees to see if that stabilises you. And your target idle is set to 950rpm while you are only idling at 900rpm, so its trying to hit a target it cannot reach. Maybe you should change the warm "idle target rpm" to 900rpm.

A combination of changing the target speed to what it can achieve, with the timing it uses to achieve it might stabilise your ARF's allowing you to tune that better. Its just hunting about in PID loops trying to achieve the impossible at the moment.


Now for your fast idle tests which are pretty good. You are hitting 110% Short term trim corr. for it to hit your target of 1.00 lambda, it needs more fuel in these cells. Now that one line has been increased to 41 / 42.... its needs the table to be smooth, can't have the values above and below it going up and down!

(https://i.ibb.co/KGp21xC/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-21-30-56.png) (https://ibb.co/KGp21xC) (https://i.ibb.co/tBXPbSY/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-21-37-34.png) (https://ibb.co/tBXPbSY)

The aim of the game is for your VE table to get you close to bang on to your target lambda. Using closed loop correction factor to get you on target is not cool and will always lead to wobbly feedback loops. Try that sort of tuning strategy on WOT under boost and you are playing dangerous games, remarkably modern ecus manage to fill the gap pretty quickly, but its seriously uncool.

Brilliant - thank you!

I'm going to have a look at your suggestion on the ignition timing, I was adjusting it tonight having some success. Will see what this adjustment along with lowering the target idle speed to 900 yields.

I need to look into this idle control motor you speak of...

Quote from: simonrobinson on September  9, 2024, 22:13Your idle is not just AFR unstable, but its lean too, and that will currently get you a fail if the measurement is true. The block outlined below needs to be set to the same value as the speed and vacuum wobble about at idle, this I'd probably start about 36.0 maybe, then see how that goes.

(https://i.ibb.co/qnbTVrs/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-22-07-30.png) (https://ibb.co/qnbTVrs)

OK.. so 36 (ISH) in those 6 cells and then setting idle target to 900.. got it.

I did also update the injectors call ever so slightly.. it did seem to help level things out in terms of smoothness. (This is a product of the RRR style tuning).

Aaand  just noticed the idle ign vs clt chart.. if I'm reading this right it's pulling 4.5 degrees when warm... Is this where my degrees are going during idle?

Further note - that idle valve type is set to PWM.. and apparently the 1ZZ uses a rotary solenoid type valve..! Which isn't on the list:

(https://i.ibb.co/d6x5Phq/IMG-1467.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6x5Phq)

Quote from: jvanzyl on September  9, 2024, 23:01Aaand  just noticed the idle ign vs clt chart.. if I'm reading this right it's pulling 4.5 degrees when warm... Is this where my degrees are going during idle?

That was one of the things I was saying when you couldn't hear me while driving LOL

For @simonrobinson also worth noting on John's setup is incorrect injector offsets.

There's also a frightening amount of similarity between John's calibrations across the board and mine from like 2019 on a totally different car. Copy-paste is the name of the game.

Being familiar with these tunes I just happened to know injector cals are never entered (mine was set to 210cc when I had 440cc). But with John's voltage issues we saw it in action. When he pulled his window switches whilst driving it dropped under 12v and it went very lean, coinciding directly with the voltage drop...well...that could only be one thing.

Bumper the offset up a bit (still well short of the spec sheet of these injectors) and lambda held miles better. So much so that autotune could only provide minor  adjustments of hundredths and thousandths after a run.

Therefore the fueling map is off, but it needs to be, as the offsets are wrong by a fair bit.

Maybe the above helps in the observations. And as you pointed out the map was stupid lean low down. Also timing was far too retarded at idle.

Scares me silly, but fascinated reading this.

I'd go into the settings and turn off ignition idle control and see where it sits without any correction and see if the IACV can manage it.

So this morning the weather was nice and wet... Not like last night when I finished the tune.. so I don't think that helped.. I tried to compensate but to no avail. My HC count was too high even on idle. So somehow having passed last time I've failed this time.
The place was in a also in a rush and they didn't log it into the system (it was the free of charge retest) so I've got no print out but I was watching the values on the screen and although lambda and everything was fine, the HC count was above 160 I think..

So I'm in a place where I can hit lambda on my car, but still have too much unburnt fuel.. I believe i've dealt with the exhaust leak, I can't hear anything leaking like last time. And I'll have another go at everyone's comments above, but I suspect it might be a lost cause.

So next steps I think are:

- Find a local mapper that understands daily driver and MOT passing needs and start again.
- change to good quality 400 cell cat

Rather.. fed up at the moment, honestly thought @shnazzle and I had nailed it last night.

Bit late to say it I know but from personal experience I would NEVER use RRR again for anything destined for road/daily driver use. I'm sure they're great at race prepping, judging by the number of race cars they set up but I had a similar "copy and paste" basic map put on mine and it never ran properly until I took it somewhere else.

When I look at your logs the lambda has sudden spikes all over the shop and constantly bounces high low. Part of me suspect you may have a bit of a misfire or a weak coil pack etc. Which would line up with your HC's issue. If you unplug an injector at a time you can hear the weaker loss.

I've been stuck in circles in my life far too many times with car problems that are not straight forward to solve, and usually its caused by a whole collection of smaller issues. Your idle strategy needs addressing properly, and Gaz is bang on the money - turn off all these auto correction strategies (closed loop lambda & idle) and get it dialled in properly, then turn them back on. But you can never dial in a faulty machine.

Maybe walk away from the problem for a few days, get past this little dent in your soul. There is another day ahead, this adventure has opened your eyes to some of the little bits that need cleaning up on your build which is very normal. Use your senses, you can smell the HC's, and they tend to make more moisture from the tail pipe.

If you get this all right it'll be a robust, tight and crisp turbo build. This is where most people fail, they drive them about straight from the "tuners", get a couple of thousand miles then rattle knock kersplunk and it gets left on a driveway for the next 5 years.

Also if you look at this partial pull log, you are at 45% throttle. Look at all those knock events! Either the knock sensor detection isn't calibrated or its pinging a bit which on a partial throttle drive isn't good as its a road car. Although your boost control looks solid. While your AFRS are really all over the shop.

(https://i.ibb.co/g7FJN4c/Screenshot-at-2024-09-10-13-35-20.png) (https://ibb.co/g7FJN4c)


While on this full WOT pull, it holding a rock steady 28 psi = 14psi of boost, and the AFR is solid as a rock, with no knock events. So at full chat the tune is good!
And it must go really well with a bar down its throat ;D
(https://i.ibb.co/jHPVdtz/Screenshot-at-2024-09-10-13-45-24.png) (https://ibb.co/jHPVdtz)

Hi @simonrobinson thank you for the advice.

I have another set of coils on the side I can test with.. but part of this electrical gremlin thing has got me wondering if it is related..

I'm going to take some timeout and chill as you say :-)

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 10, 2024, 13:49Also if you look at this partial pull log, you are at 45% throttle. Look at all those knock events! Either the knock sensor detection isn't calibrated or its pinging a bit which on a partial throttle drive isn't good as its a road car. Although your boost control looks solid. While your AFRS are really all over the shop.

(https://i.ibb.co/g7FJN4c/Screenshot-at-2024-09-10-13-35-20.png) (https://ibb.co/g7FJN4c)


While on this full WOT pull, it holding a rock steady 28 psi = 14psi of boost, and the AFR is solid as a rock, with no knock events. So at full chat the tune is good!
And it must go really well with a bar down its throat ;D
(https://i.ibb.co/jHPVdtz/Screenshot-at-2024-09-10-13-45-24.png) (https://ibb.co/jHPVdtz)

Erm.... HOW am I at 14psi with a 10 PSI wastegate..? I don't have a boost controller just running of the spring strength.. something has got to be wrong here..

Just had a look at the boost gauge which records the highest value.. and it's saying 12.9 was the highest psi.. looks like my wastegate has failed..

I'm trying to do my day job but I can't stop thinking about your little puzzle. And half my mind is on work and half on this. I'm doing a rubbish job of both to be honest.

The ignition timing problem at idle might be screwing your HC's. 7 to 5 degrees at idle just isn't right.

If the crank timing real world is true to the table, then this sort of engine will want about 12 degrees of timing at idle. That will give it the full burn in the cylinder so there is less HC's going out the exhaust valve. Now its getting retarded down to this 7 / 5 area just to make the idle work - which is just a tomfoolery and its not going to burn it in time.

You need a sensible idle timing, then make it idle the correct way. I bet if you disable the idle control strategy, push the timing to 12 degrees it idles wrong, and that needs dealing with by strangling the air intake at idle.

Its just food for thought, the problem is not in front of me.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 10, 2024, 14:27I'm trying to do my day job but I can't stop thinking about your little puzzle. And half my mind is on work and half on this. I'm doing a rubbish job of both to be honest.

The ignition timing problem at idle might be screwing your HC's. 7 to 5 degrees at idle just isn't right.

If the crank timing real world is true to the table, then this sort of engine will want about 12 degrees of timing at idle. That will give it the full burn in the cylinder so there is less HC's going out the exhaust valve. Now its getting retarded down to this 7 / 5 area just to make the idle work - which is just a tomfoolery and its not going to burn it in time.

You need a sensible idle timing, then make it idle the correct way. I bet if you disable the idle control strategy, push the timing to 12 degrees it idles wrong, and that needs dealing with by strangling the air intake at idle.

Its just food for thought, the problem is not in front of me.

This is exactly the issue I had with mine, I was cheating the idle by holding the tps at 2% and using ihn timing to bring it down.

It may need some slight adjustment at the IACV.

What's your tos reading at idle?

I'd lock the ignition timing at 10 or 12 degrees and go from there.

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 10, 2024, 13:55Erm.... HOW am I at 14psi with a 10 PSI wastegate..? I don't have a boost controller just running of the spring strength.. something has got to be wrong here..

I've measured various actuator springs, and they tend to be rated at the pressure they start to move at which is a bit vague as it depends on preload. Mechanical boost control is also a product of the waste gate sizing and the pivot arm length. But you have boost control which is good, its not creeping away to infinity, although that does result in lots of power!

If you have a target boost value in mind, its a better to use a weaker spring, say 7 psi, then run a boost control solenoid to one of the available outputs on the ecumaster black. That way you can have close loop boost control enabled, and ramp up the boost as the revs increase so you can be kind to your clutch and transmission gear.

Hi all - ok info overload here.. I'm going to work through all your comments and questions when I get a chance tomorrow.
BUT to enable that, what is @Gaz2405

-TOS reading?
When you say "lock the ignition timing", is that a turn of phrase or do you literally have to do something other than writing those values in?

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 10, 2024, 19:32I've measured various actuator springs, and they tend to be rated at the pressure they start to move at which is a bit vague as it depends on preload. Mechanical boost control is also a product of the waste gate sizing and the pivot arm length. But you have boost control which is good, its not creeping away to infinity, although that does result in lots of power!

If you have a target boost value in mind, its a better to use a weaker spring, say 7 psi, then run a boost control solenoid to one of the available outputs on the ecumaster black. That way you can have close loop boost control enabled, and ramp up the boost as the revs increase so you can be kind to your clutch and transmission gear.

So I'm ok if it's behaving consistently, when it was mapped we determined it started opening at 10PSI but I was under the distinct impression it was fully open prior to 13 psi as that's really the max these engines (rods) should be subjected to.

I'm going to have a look around for a 7PSI dog leg actuator at some point and put the boost controller back in then..

Anyway.. I think fixing the electrical gremlins is going to be required so tomorrow I'm going to use my little batter/alternator tester and then likely I'll go old school and get a normal metric tonne battery.. probably have to move a bunch of stuff in the engine bay to make room as well which'll be annoying.

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 10, 2024, 21:11Hi all - ok info overload here.. I'm going to work through all your comments and questions when I get a chance tomorrow.
BUT to enable that, what is @Gaz2405

-TOS reading?
When you say "lock the ignition timing", is that a turn of phrase or do you literally have to do something other than writing those values in?

So I'm ok if it's behaving consistently, when it was mapped we determined it started opening at 10PSI but I was under the distinct impression it was fully open prior to 13 psi as that's really the max these engines (rods) should be subjected to.

I'm going to have a look around for a 7PSI dog leg actuator at some point and put the boost controller back in then..

Anyway.. I think fixing the electrical gremlins is going to be required so tomorrow I'm going to use my little batter/alternator tester and then likely I'll go old school and get a normal metric tonne battery.. probably have to move a bunch of stuff in the engine bay to make room as well which'll be annoying.

Sorry typo...

TPS throttle position sensor.

You can lock the ignition in the ignition settings, it's just a tick box that way there's also no correction factor from anywhere too.

My voltage dives out when I max my windows, you can see it how all you light go dim. Maybe just jump lead yourself to another battery for proof of concept before investing much effort.


(https://i.ibb.co/Xt0Kn1N/Screenshot-at-2024-09-10-21-44-34.png) (https://ibb.co/Xt0Kn1N)

Ignition lock function.

Hi all- so first of all again a big thanks to everyone.

In the event you would like to receive copies of the logs and setup files that being discussed and be a part of this slight freak/horror show please PM me your email address and I'll send out copies to you on blind copy.

Just to clarify what I've done:
Battery and alternator checked out fine
Regapped the sparks to 1mm. They were all pretty much there.
Swapped out the coil packs to another set.

I've had a good fiddle around, because let's be clear that's an accurate description of my efforts.


(https://i.ibb.co/10jvx13/IMG-1495.jpg) (https://ibb.co/10jvx13)

(https://i.ibb.co/1dhh3LX/IMG-1496.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1dhh3LX)

(https://i.ibb.co/sg9C0nb/IMG-1497.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sg9C0nb)

(https://i.ibb.co/5LjHCw4/IMG-1498.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5LjHCw4)

(https://i.ibb.co/WgJ8WGH/IMG-1499.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WgJ8WGH)

(https://i.ibb.co/Dkxwpc7/IMG-1500.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dkxwpc7)

Tried setting the ignition to values between 10-12, and then adjusting the fuel map.. didn't really resolve the wondering afrs
Tried upping the injectors cal to 0.91 up from about 0.72 and it made the engine sound more positive but then was very rich and any efforts to reduce fuel would result in a stall. However if I took the ignition lock of it would hit lambda but ignition would be at about 6-7 degrees.

You need to look at the idle air control setup. A combination of the IACV and the throttle plate stop.

I'm not sure how the ecumaster black works with the toyota IACV as mine is on a drive by wire conversion, Gaz will hopefully have some wisdom on his settings for the IACV.

But its very common that the IACV is totally seized up in these Toyota/Denso throttle bodies. Its got some 5 point security screws that hold it together, if you strip them down, work and lube wash them out they always live again.

Ok.. thanks!  I'll follow this then and see how it goes:
https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?topic=60448.0

That how to is fine but I'm fairly sure I did mine from underneath the car without removing anything but the coolant pipes.
You just need to be careful to put everything back where it came from, there's a defined position for the valve.
Also if it's not been disturbed for some time the gasket might not be fit for reuse so maybe get one to hand before you start.
I got some from MR2 Ben in April for a semi reasonable price, I vaguely remember reading that one of the Subarus uses the same gasket but never actually looked for it...

Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 11, 2024, 20:58That how to is fine but I'm fairly sure I did mine from underneath the car without removing anything but the coolant pipes.
You just need to be careful to put everything back where it came from, there's a defined position for the valve.
Also if it's not been disturbed for some time the gasket might not be fit for reuse so maybe get one to hand before you start.
I got some from MR2 Ben in April for a semi reasonable price, I vaguely remember reading that one of the Subarus uses the same gasket but never actually looked for it...

Oh no... coolant.. my nemesis.. argh!
Good shout on the gasket..
part of me is thinking that this thing shouldn't be gummed up as the engine is relatively unused..

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 11, 2024, 21:08Oh no... coolant.. my nemesis.. argh!
Good shout on the gasket..
part of me is thinking that this thing shouldn't be gummed up as the engine is relatively unused..

Ironically that's WHY they stick, through lack of use, I got a used one from one of our reputable suppliers once and it was basically green and crusty inside from corrosion.
Suggested they open their eyes before sending parts out in future.
Be careful with pulling the solenoid out as well, not sure if it mentions in the how to but it's some sort of rare earth magnet or something and they break from a dirty look....

Right! Ordered the gasket.

I've just fitted an Ecumaster DL1 datalogger card reader add on, its very handy as it keeps logging every time the engine runs. With a 4gb card inserted it can store 44 hours of logs with the time and date stamped. It'll capture the cold start data every time so I can finally clean up my low temperature cold start roughness. It also has a bluetooth module in it so you can use the Android app Realdash so you can use if for your boost gauge and AFR gauge etc.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 12, 2024, 19:05I've just fitted an Ecumaster DL1 datalogger card reader add on, its very handy as it keeps logging every time the engine runs. With a 4gb card inserted it can store 44 hours of logs with the time and date stamped. It'll capture the cold start data every time so I can finally clean up my low temperature cold start roughness. It also has a bluetooth module in it so you can use the Android app Realdash so you can use if for your boost gauge and AFR gauge etc.

I found this a must.
And RealDash is quite funky, albeit a bit clunky

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 11, 2024, 21:08Oh no... coolant.. my nemesis.. argh!
Good shout on the gasket..
part of me is thinking that this thing shouldn't be gummed up as the engine is relatively unused..

I'd be very surprised if it's a stick IACV.

Nothing else has changed on the vehicle, at least mechanically that should affect it's idling.

It's got to be in the ECU parameters, did you have idling issues prior to the conversion?

I'd be careful messing with IACV's at least in taking them off and trying to adjust manually.

I'd first unplug it and see what that does to your idle.

If there's no change when you unplug it, then it's not working.

But I'm 99.9% sure your issue is going to be with the settings in the ECU.

What is your tps at idle?

Is the PID function ticked on idle control?

Have you turned off ignition idle control and see what happens?

If it's any consolation John (and only slightly off topic) my "standard" 06 with OEM cats 2 u cat wouldn't get through emissions this morning either and now identifies as a Citroen C3...

Quote from: Call the midlife! on September 13, 2024, 13:05If it's any consolation John (and only slightly off topic) my "standard" 06 with OEM cats 2 u cat wouldn't get through emissions this morning either and now identifies as a Citroen C3...

shucks... sorry to hear that man..

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 13, 2024, 11:33I'd be very surprised if it's a stick IACV.

Nothing else has changed on the vehicle, at least mechanically that should affect it's idling.

It's got to be in the ECU parameters, did you have idling issues prior to the conversion?

I'd be careful messing with IACV's at least in taking them off and trying to adjust manually.

I'd first unplug it and see what that does to your idle.

If there's no change when you unplug it, then it's not working.

But I'm 99.9% sure your issue is going to be with the settings in the ECU.

What is your tps at idle?

Is the PID function ticked on idle control?

Have you turned off ignition idle control and see what happens?

OK I've got my gasket to hand.. I'm going to go and have a look where the valve is and see if I can disconnect it.

I think Gaz is bang on the money! From the logs the IACV is just doing nothing. The ECUmaster output is doing nothing regarding the IACV. Maybe you two can print screen your IACV settings?

My car with the ECUmaster black is going in for an MOT on friday, and this year they have a new system that has a camera in the bay which DVSA have on trial. I've always had the freedom of errrr alternative testing, but this year it is now a no go. All MOT centres are getting forced into replacing the gas tester with a new "combined connected". So I too have a proper judgement day coming up.

(https://i.ibb.co/mCjr7kQ/20240913-154923.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCjr7kQ)

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 13, 2024, 15:33I think Gaz is bang on the money! From the logs the IACV is just doing nothing. The ECUmaster output is doing nothing regarding the IACV. Maybe you two can print screen your IACV settings?

My car with the ECUmaster black is going in for an MOT on friday, and this year they have a new system that has a camera in the bay which DVSA have on trial. I've always had the freedom of errrr alternative testing, but this year it is now a no go. All MOT centres are getting forced into replacing the gas tester with a new "combined connected". So I too have a proper judgement day coming up.

Where I took mine this morning they had a new machine but thankfully no workshop cameras, the irony of it is I'm planning on putting a turbo on it over winter and fitting a 400 cell cat to make it MOT friendly. Today it struggled standard with the OEM standard cat, doesn't bode well 😂

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 13, 2024, 15:49(https://i.ibb.co/mCjr7kQ/20240913-154923.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCjr7kQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/CMRqSQ9/Idle-settings.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CMRqSQ9)

So it appears we have a BIT of a difference here..

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 13, 2024, 16:48(https://i.ibb.co/CMRqSQ9/Idle-settings.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CMRqSQ9)

So it appears we have a BIT of a difference here..

Looks strange you've not got ign control ticked yet it still changes your timing by the looks of it.

Try disabling PID control

I would also look at changing your frequency settings to 120 from 200 they have a certain range they can work better in.

Although I'm sure Simon will be better versed on that.

I have no idea as I'm on drive by wire conversion so no IACV at all with my own fully home made engine wiring harness, it just adjusts the butterfly.

But Gaz is using "hbridge1 B (6a, G10)" which is pin 10 of the grey connector.

While john is set to "aux 6 (5a, g4) which is pin 6 of the grey connector.

How have you got it wired John?

Are you both using the plug and play adapter?


(https://i.ibb.co/kcK4SL4/toyota-celica-ecumaster-pnp-ecu-kit-plug-and-play-engine-management.png) (https://ibb.co/kcK4SL4)

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 13, 2024, 17:09I would also look at changing your frequency settings to 120 from 200 they have a certain range they can work better in.

Although I'm sure Simon will be better versed on that.

Right I've emailed out the logs..
In terms of what I experienced, I started on a working map and then started to alter the settings according to what @Gaz2405 posted.

You'll see in the logs how things changed after a couple of mins!
I also then tried locking the ignition angle at 11 and the revs massively picked up. It didn't do that before.

I also then started trying to alter the fuelling but didn't really succeed in reducing the revs etc (wrong approach I know)

Then following the advice to switch to 200 I went back out to the and it won't idle now to stay on!

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 13, 2024, 18:12I have no idea as I'm on drive by wire conversion so no IACV at all with my own fully home made engine wiring harness, it just adjusts the butterfly.

But Gaz is using "hbridge1 B (6a, G10)" which is pin 10 of the grey connector.

While john is set to "aux 6 (5a, g4) which is pin 6 of the grey connector.

How have you got it wired John?

Are you both using the plug and play adapter?


(https://i.ibb.co/kcK4SL4/toyota-celica-ecumaster-pnp-ecu-kit-plug-and-play-engine-management.png) (https://ibb.co/kcK4SL4)

I can see the difference.. but can't tell you why.
My version is premade harness that sits inside an OEM ecu box.. the only way you'd know it was different is the wide and cable and vacuum tube coming out of it.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 13, 2024, 18:12I have no idea as I'm on drive by wire conversion so no IACV at all with my own fully home made engine wiring harness, it just adjusts the butterfly.

But Gaz is using "hbridge1 B (6a, G10)" which is pin 10 of the grey connector.

While john is set to "aux 6 (5a, g4) which is pin 6 of the grey connector.

How have you got it wired John?

Are you both using the plug and play adapter?


(https://i.ibb.co/kcK4SL4/toyota-celica-ecumaster-pnp-ecu-kit-plug-and-play-engine-management.png) (https://ibb.co/kcK4SL4)

I'm using the plug and play adapter from rrr.

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 13, 2024, 18:19Right I've emailed out the logs..
In terms of what I experienced, I started on a working map and then started to alter the settings according to what @Gaz2405 posted.

You'll see in the logs how things changed after a couple of mins!
I also then tried locking the ignition angle at 11 and the revs massively picked up. It didn't do that before.

I also then started trying to alter the fuelling but didn't really succeed in reducing the revs etc (wrong approach I know)

Then following the advice to switch to 200 I went back out to the and it won't idle now to stay on!

Switches to 200 ? You mean the 200hz setting?

Mine runs and alters at 120hz, but I've seen them set upto 240hz in others maps I've looked at.

Also, what's your TPS reading? This is a key bit of info.

I'd be temped to just unplug the idle control valve, that way you can see if its doing anything at all.

And if its not doing anything, then try it on the same hbridge channel as Gaz's instead. (but don't overlook that it might be 1) not on the right channel, and 2) rusted inside ! Its not always just one problem in life)

Gaz - from his logs it sits at 1% when at idle, and at WOT its 68% I think as thats the max its been at a few times, it appears to work OK, and constantly homes to the the same 0.57v to 0.59v tps input.

From what I could tell the IACV PWN settings looked correct and to me it does look to be doing stuff.

PID isn't on, I did have it on. Took a fair bit of fiddling but in my opinion it's for corrections, not for actually getting it to idle nicely. It's to compensate for outside factors that affect the otherwise well sorted VE.

Personally I think the lower range and cruising ranges are trash and not helped by the dodgy injector settings.

I know what I'd do, but it's not my money or time

What injectors is it running, are they listed in the injector wizard?

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 13, 2024, 20:24What injectors is it running, are they listed in the injector wizard?

Yes. That's the embarrassing part. Siemens 630s.
And the offsets are wildly off from what is in there. It's daft. Just laziness

Quote from: shnazzle on September 13, 2024, 20:29Yes. That's the embarrassing part. Siemens 630s.
And the offsets are wildly off from what is in there. It's daft. Just laziness

I'd pick the injectors from the injector wizard to start with then and go from there.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 13, 2024, 21:11I'd pick the injectors from the injector wizard to start with then and go from there.

But then the whole tune is garbage, including the now good power range

Quote from: shnazzle on September 13, 2024, 21:22But then the whole tune is garbage, including the now good power range

I'm forgetting the tune hasn't been built by Jay.

But it wouldn't take long to get the VE table sorted road mapping.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 13, 2024, 21:57I'm forgetting the tune hasn't been built by Jay.

But it wouldn't take long to get the VE table sorted road mapping.

I mean, it's a great learning opportunity. Do a Gaz :)

But to take it to the original issue; the first port of call is to get to through MOT. After that, it leaves room to "play".
The beauty of it is that when J just needs to use the car in anger, just load in the RRR map and off he goes. Once he's got time again, load in his map and continue his calibration ventures

I agree with Gaz, the fuel table is easy to do and the autotune function will get it +95% of the way there, this injector issue will need crossing one day, but I'm uncertain it will cure your current emissions war. Tuning wise its the ignition table that is the hard part which does not need to be touched, the VE table is easy.

After an hour of looking closely at your logs, Shnazzle is 100% correct, the IACV is actually working. No drinking coolant is required!

But the idle control is not tuned correctly.The ecu is trying to obtain the target idle, but its fighting itself.

From the newest logs, Gaz's settings are not helping yours idle at all, go back to where you were before.

Set you target idle table at 76 degs and 83 degrees to 900 rpm too.

Turn off the Idle ignition control all together just to tune this table below.

Increase this area a little bit, step it up till you hit your target idle:-

(https://i.ibb.co/3rvFKhX/Idle-settings.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3rvFKhX)

Lets see it actually obtain its target.

Also don't forget to turn off idle ignition control. The ignition timing map is bad enough as it is at idle ranges. I'd be inclined to just settle for a 11-14deg range is the idle and increase linearly towards fast idle (luckily much along the same Y axis as no load), tune VE, then maybe turn on idle ignition control to "cheat" the timing map at idle? Have it try to meet the targets via the VE + guesstimated timing+ idle ignition control 

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 13, 2024, 22:18I agree with Gaz, the fuel table is easy to do and the autotune function will get it +95% of the way there, this injector issue will need crossing one day, but I'm uncertain it will cure your current emissions war. Tuning wise its the ignition table that is the hard part which does not need to be touched, the VE table is easy.

After an hour of looking closely at your logs, Shnazzle is 100% correct, the IACV is actually working. No drinking coolant is required!

But the idle control is not tuned correctly.The ecu is trying to obtain the target idle, but its fighting itself.

From the newest logs, Gaz's settings are not helping yours idle at all, go back to where you were before.

Set you target idle table at 76 degs and 83 degrees to 900 rpm too.

Turn off the Idle ignition control all together just to tune this table below.

Increase this area a little bit, step it up till you hit your target idle:-

(https://i.ibb.co/3rvFKhX/Idle-settings.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3rvFKhX)

Lets see it actually obtain its target.

Got it.

I guess worst case scenario I build a map fresh that only focuses on the MOT Rev range and use RRR for trying too and from the mot..

Quote from: shnazzle on September 13, 2024, 22:30Also don't forget to turn off idle ignition control. The ignition timing map is bad enough as it is at idle ranges. I'd be inclined to just settle for a 11-14deg range is the idle and increase linearly towards fast idle (luckily much along the same Y axis as no load), tune VE, then maybe turn on idle ignition control to "cheat" the timing map at idle? Have it try to meet the targets via the VE + guesstimated timing+ idle ignition control

I spy another teams call on the horizon to make sure I've understood this

Quote from: shnazzle on September 13, 2024, 20:29Yes. That's the embarrassing part. Siemens 630s.
And the offsets are wildly off from what is in there. It's daft. Just laziness

These are the injectors I bought off of you @Gaz2405

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 13, 2024, 22:41I spy another teams call on the horizon to make sure I've understood this

Let's get some feedback on my post first haha
It may be a terrible idea

Hi All, updated logs and maps emailed out (the software is free to install if you wish to play "pretend tuner with me".

I've updated the idle reference table (started increasing the values, and then leaning out the fuel mixture.. I don't think the ignition timing took a blind bit of notice, but please double check me on that... if anything the values in the "quick tune" section were dropping down lower I think) and turned off idle ignition control.
Changed the target rev to 900 all the way through from 76 degrees.
Ran autotune after a couple of rev ranging etc. 

To be honest, ignoring the fact that the ignition timing was doing it's own thing... I do think it was finding the 900 rpm range a bit better and possible idling better?

There is certainly something wonky going on here, I can see you are trying to do a fast idle test at 2600rpm roughly. Study this screenshot.

(https://i.ibb.co/nPX4YYk/Screenshot-at-2024-09-14-19-54-34.png) (https://ibb.co/nPX4YYk)


The AFR is bouncing about like a yoyo. The timing is holding static, the injector pulsewidth % is basically static (going between 2.5% and 3%). I don't understand how you can have such a large deviation in AFR's, it should be a nearly straight line.

Are you sure its not misfiring a bit? Maybe 18 degrees timing is too advanced? Maybe its too retarded? I'd play with the timing and see if your AFR line cleans up.

(https://i.ibb.co/SfFN820/Screenshot-at-2024-09-14-20-18-56.png) (https://ibb.co/SfFN820)




But the million dollar question, what in the world is making it offset the ignition timing from the table value by 4.5 degrees here at idle? The idle timing correction = 0, the IAT = 0, CLT = 0, Knock correction = 0, custom ign correction = 0, CYLcorr = 0, launch control = 0  it should be bloody sparking at 7 degrees, not 2.5 degrees!

QuoteThe final ignition angle is calculated in the following way:
Angle  = IGN(load,rpm) + CYLCorr(cyl) + IATCorr + CLTCorr +  KSCorr + IDLECorr + LCCorr + Nitro(load, rpm) + TPSvsMAP(tps, MAP)

(https://i.ibb.co/8d4pD3w/Screenshot-at-2024-09-14-20-12-09.png) (https://ibb.co/8d4pD3w)

I would be tempted to ask on the ECUmaster facebook group, someone on there will know why its doing that, but its currently beyond me!

Post the screen shot and ask here:- https://www.facebook.com/groups/1554134521519230/

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 14, 2024, 20:27The AFR is bouncing about like a yoyo. The timing is holding static, the injector pulsewidth % is basically static (going between 2.5% and 3%). I don't understand how you can have such a large deviation in AFR's, it should be a nearly straight line.

Are you sure its not misfiring a bit? Maybe 18 degrees timing is too advanced? Maybe its too retarded? I'd play with the timing and see if your AFR line cleans up.

I do think it sort of misfires a bit.. I mean it's not a stable rhythmic engine running, it sort of stumbles a bit, the stumbles are where the AFR goes awry.

I'll have a fiddle round more with ignition timing..

Not looking forward to venturing onto facebook... ergh..

Thanks very much all the same!

I think it might have something to do with this, look at that wobbly cam sync.

(https://i.ibb.co/93Bd2XT/Screenshot-at-2024-09-15-00-06-34.png) (https://ibb.co/93Bd2XT)

Your primary trigger / cam sync tooth is bouncing about, its not keeping proper sync.

I think you should try changing your "Next Edge rejection angle" to 6 degrees.

If you watched with a timing light, you might find your spark is jumping forwards and backwards all the time by about 5 degrees under low engine speeds.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 15, 2024, 00:13I think it might have something to do with this, look at that wobbly cam sync.

(https://i.ibb.co/93Bd2XT/Screenshot-at-2024-09-15-00-06-34.png) (https://ibb.co/93Bd2XT)

Your primary trigger / cam sync tooth is bouncing about, its not keeping proper sync.

I think you should try changing your "Next Edge rejection angle" to 6 degrees.

If you watched with a timing light, you might find your spark is jumping forwards and backwards all the time by about 5 degrees under low engine speeds.

I shall try this later today! Thank you! Part of me swings between thinking I could build a base map to WTF is this new parameter that @simonrobinson  has started taking about...

Managed to get access to the ECU master Facebook site... 32k members and a LOT of posts asking questions but very few responses... 🙁

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 15, 2024, 00:13I think it might have something to do with this, look at that wobbly cam sync.

(https://i.ibb.co/93Bd2XT/Screenshot-at-2024-09-15-00-06-34.png) (https://ibb.co/93Bd2XT)

Your primary trigger / cam sync tooth is bouncing about, its not keeping proper sync.

I think you should try changing your "Next Edge rejection angle" to 6 degrees.

If you watched with a timing light, you might find your spark is jumping forwards and backwards all the time by about 5 degrees under low engine speeds.

J's settings are exactly as mine were. The sensor or tooth setup doesn't change so it should be fine you'd think.
Unless the ground on the sensor needsa clean (common issue).

John can you scope the sensor? That should make it pretty obvious

Ok then. I think I scoped the sensor...

(https://i.ibb.co/W2HkZjx/IMG-20240915-WA0005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W2HkZjx)

Are the gaps the issue??

Did a bunch of other things, tried changing the injector values via the wizard.. Not sure that worked..
Logs etc have all been mailed out.
I await your wisdom!

Well the edge rejection made zero effect. So much for that idea.

I have no idea why its retarding the ignition once its warmed up.

Ask on the facebook group as there are some guys on there who are absolute wizards with EMU. Its quite a good group, it attracts good people, its not like a car group.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 15, 2024, 18:06Well the edge rejection made zero effect. So much for that idea.

I have no idea why its retarding the ignition once its warmed up.

Ask on the facebook group as there are some guys on there who are absolute wizards with EMU. Its quite a good group, it attracts good people, its not like a car group.

Yeah no worries hey 😊
I submitted my question- it's still pending review.

Spent a bit of time this morning looking through the options for timing and came across the answer quite swiftly as you have already eliminated any corrections.

Basically it's the CAM1 adjustment.
It's not set right so it's permanently advancing.

Just pop CAM1 angle into the log graph and you'll see it.

It's not in the map though, hence it has to be the angles set wrong.

I compared it with a config I had (mine vs J's resp);
CAM offset; 587deg vs 584deg
Max retard/advance: 30deg vs 38deg  - this one can be different depending on the car I think
Steady pos DC: 43% vs 38%
Min volt DC: 25% vs 20%

The CAM map itself doesn't exactly look Toyota-spec. It's definitely aimed at power. Which is fine but it does of course take away some of the benefits of fuel economy with some overlap with the exhaust valve.

But all in all...you can't have overlap during idle. It'll mess with it. 

You'll see that when the engine is warming up (CAM1 doesn't kick in until 60deg) the lambda is actually tracking. But once the CAM1 is engaged you start to see lambda variance increasing linearly with the amount of CAM1 intake overlap.

Get rid of that and you get rid of the difference in timing and idle should be smoother.

The rest is still just VE.

WRT to the ignition map; Nothing is going to convince me that 5-7 deg is correct for idle. From tinkering I do know that lambda went lean when advancing and rich when retarding. But only very marginally. 
If you can get the timing to around the recommended 12-14deg or so around idle then I reckon it'll be quite sweet.

After that you can add corrections to your heart's content to deal with changes in weather etc.

To further reiterate the offset being wrong;

When the VVT is inactive (look on logs under 60deg CLT), it is still adding 0.5-2.0. 
This should be a flat 0. If the offset is correct and there's no angle requested then it should be 0. Seems obvious.

@jvanzyl this is an easy one. 
On a cold car;
Just run the car, have a log showing CAM1 angle, and degree by degree change the offset until you see the graph at a stable 0.

Once done, then graph the Ignition angle vs Ignition table and see where you're at

That is very good info shazzle, it would certainly explain why the sync tooth count wanders from 57 to 58. And also that it doesn't wander when its on cold (no VVT) and when the cam is getting controlled properly.

Looking at a log that trigger tooth is 100% connected to the wandering VVT control at idle.

(https://i.ibb.co/NpdcQ3q/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-11-53-58.png) (https://ibb.co/NpdcQ3q)

Tighten that up and it should make steps towards a more stable idle AFR. Your ignition angle might sort itself out too.

And maybe it needs a bit of VVT advancement at the fast idle area to clean up the misfirey unstable AFR there? Because on your fast idle its still 0.00 - maybe it should be about 10 to 15 degrees? Tweak it and listen to see if it stops burbling.

So shnazzle has save the day on the weird wandering VVT / trigger problem.

And it looks like Vitali Kvartler on the facebook group has come to rescue with the idle ignition retard problem.

(https://i.ibb.co/wrpwR02/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-19-12-02.png) (https://ibb.co/wrpwR02)

Fix those two and you're on the path to success.

P.S. This is the VVT settings from another example:-
(https://i.ibb.co/7ny2xgQ/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-20-22-22.png) (https://ibb.co/7ny2xgQ)

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 16, 2024, 19:15So shnazzle has save the day on the weird wandering VVT / trigger problem.

And it looks like Vitali Kvartler on the facebook group has come to rescue with the idle ignition retard problem.

(https://i.ibb.co/wrpwR02/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-19-12-02.png) (https://ibb.co/wrpwR02)

Fix those two and you're on the path to success.

P.S. This is the VVT settings from another example:-
(https://i.ibb.co/7ny2xgQ/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-20-22-22.png) (https://ibb.co/7ny2xgQ)

SUCCESS! partially... ignition timing is now doing mostly what its told!

Hooray!

(https://i.ibb.co/GQDD8Vw/Ignition-timing-finaly-working.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GQDD8Vw)

I've emailed out the logs, but I honestly couldn't quite work out the CAM timing instructions..

(https://i.ibb.co/rM7t8Pm/Cam-timing.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rM7t8Pm)

Which one of these was I supposed to be adjusting? I tried both but I don't think I could tell if it was doing anything.. I only tried 1 or 2 degrees on the table as I was a bit too chicken to put it higher without checking first!

Idle is kind of "surging" a bit..
I was doing research on the facebook site and there seemed to be a lot of comments on people using out coil packs for other applications pointing out that dwell times above 3.2 were too high.. application was predominantly on 2JZ engines though.


(https://i.ibb.co/D1g0rtp/dwell-time.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D1g0rtp)

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 16, 2024, 21:39SUCCESS! partially... ignition timing is now doing mostly what its told!

Hooray!

(https://i.ibb.co/GQDD8Vw/Ignition-timing-finaly-working.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GQDD8Vw)

I've emailed out the logs, but I honestly couldn't quite work out the CAM timing instructions..

(https://i.ibb.co/rM7t8Pm/Cam-timing.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rM7t8Pm)

Which one of these was I supposed to be adjusting? I tried both but I don't think I could tell if it was doing anything.. I only tried 1 or 2 degrees on the table as I was a bit too chicken to put it higher without checking first!

Idle is kind of "surging" a bit..
I was doing research on the facebook site and there seemed to be a lot of comments on people using out coil packs for other applications pointing out that dwell times above 3.2 were too high.. application was predominantly on 2JZ engines though.


(https://i.ibb.co/D1g0rtp/dwell-time.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D1g0rtp)

Not surprised at all.
Dwell times are dwell times. They don't change per car.

To me, I'd want all the right settings in there from the get go. Otherwise you're constantly battling stuff.

Good team work guys!

Wrt CAM1.


It's NOT the table. Leave the table be :)
Go to Parameters and change the offset (first field) until the log for CAM1 angle shows 0 at idle. 

Quote from: shnazzle on September 16, 2024, 22:06Wrt CAM1.


It's NOT the table. Leave the table be :)
Go to Parameters and change the offset (first field) until the log for CAM1 angle shows 0 at idle.

Got it. I did try going up to 585 but got nervous.. I'll give that a go tomorrow night 😊

I've found the following dwell times for our coil packs:

8V 6.3
9V 5.3
10V 4.4
11V 3.8
12V 3.2
13V 2.7
14V 2.4
15V 2.2

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 16, 2024, 22:03Good team work guys!

Indeed!

Straight from the Toyota 1zz Data = "Ignition timing 8 – 12° BTDC at idle" and "Sprocket with VVT actuator is mounted to intake camshaft, variable timing range - 40°"

Thus the CAM 1 maximum retard/advance should be @ 40 degrees (notice its set to 30 yet the table demands 37 degrees  :-X  )

I think the Deadband should be tighter @ 1.5'

I think the CAM offset is bob on at the moment @ 584


The only issue with messing with the coil dwell times is it will probably then need the ignition map retuning, and before getting into that game you want to check your drift with a timing light to fix your "Ignition - Primary Trigger - Input Delay" which is currently zero and that is plain impossible.... do not go down that rabbit hole yet! Just ignore that elephant in the room for now  :)) But that is just my 2p, dodgy ignition tables on boost are high risk



Now you need to go back to the "Idle - Idle Ref Table" and bring down this area to get the idle on your 950rpm target. Which then may in turn the VE table need tweaking on the idle cells to get the AFR in tune. (you change the air, you change the fuel, snake eating its own tail)

(https://i.ibb.co/SJYC9zt/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-22-57-41.png) (https://ibb.co/SJYC9zt)


I think you should plan to fix your VVT table to look like this, because yours is pretty broken, and having a target of 1 degree shows us if your VVT is working, and having a target of 5 degrees at fast idle will show us its chasing the target correctly. (and its an actually sane smooth table!)

(https://i.ibb.co/r4v9BkR/Screenshot-at-2024-09-16-22-55-10.png) (https://ibb.co/r4v9BkR)

I'll email that table so you don't have to manually copy each value.

And then do us another log with a fast idle test in it too.

Hi @simonrobinson thanks very much for this! Currently ill in bed, and as much as I want to implement these changes I'm not quite able bodied at this current time. I hope so be able to do it tomorrow though 😁

I have my MOT tomorrow, cat pipe is made and badly diy welded up, Vbands seal good.
Got the AFR's sitting flat as you can get at the idle and fast idle.

Fast idle:-
(https://i.ibb.co/Ss9prGp/Screenshot-at-2024-09-19-13-45-41.png) (https://ibb.co/Ss9prGp)

Tickover:-
(https://i.ibb.co/F5K8KFM/Screenshot-at-2024-09-19-13-51-07.png) (https://ibb.co/F5K8KFM)


Terrible welding:-
(https://i.ibb.co/yFfcQQy/Whats-App-Image-2024-09-19-at-11-02-30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFfcQQy)

Fingers crossed it does it, but it still smells a bit petrolly. I'm getting that car in the MOT bay with that cat glowing red.

Now I'm thinking if there is a tiny air leak that is getting into the wideband sensor then the MOT test machine lambda values will not match my AFR's, and than I should just change my target AFR table.

Best of luck man. I've been laid up in bed since tues and my current temp is 38 degrees after medication.
One day I'll get back to it...

Godspeed

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 19, 2024, 13:54I have my MOT tomorrow, cat pipe is made and badly diy welded up, Vbands seal good.
Got the AFR's sitting flat as you can get at the idle and fast idle.

Fast idle:-
(https://i.ibb.co/Ss9prGp/Screenshot-at-2024-09-19-13-45-41.png) (https://ibb.co/Ss9prGp)

Tickover:-
(https://i.ibb.co/F5K8KFM/Screenshot-at-2024-09-19-13-51-07.png) (https://ibb.co/F5K8KFM)


Terrible welding:-
(https://i.ibb.co/yFfcQQy/Whats-App-Image-2024-09-19-at-11-02-30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFfcQQy)

Fingers crossed it does it, but it still smells a bit petrolly. I'm getting that car in the MOT bay with that cat glowing red.

Now I'm thinking if there is a tiny air leak that is getting into the wideband sensor then the MOT test machine lambda values will not match my AFR's, and than I should just change my target AFR table.

If you think that's bad welding you should see some on an exhaust I bought from a main manufacturer 😂

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 19, 2024, 14:21I've been laid up in bed since tues and my current temp is 38 degrees after medication.

Keep a close eye on that that temp. Monitor heart rate, usually elevates, if a viral infection.
Paracetamol and plenty of fluids. Any other symptoms?

Vit C and D.

You need to monitor your own mapping right now.

Quote from: Ardent on September 19, 2024, 22:00Keep a close eye on that that temp. Monitor heart rate, usually elevates, if a viral infection.
Paracetamol and plenty of fluids. Any other symptoms?

Vit C and D.

You need to monitor your own mapping right now.

thanks man, just I have been keeping a close eye on it.
At it happens right now is the first time it's registering as "normal" so looking forward to not feeling so utterly rubbish and hopefully getting some actual sleep!

Well I got a fail.

But it was very close to passing.

It totally flew though HC's and Lambda with flying colours, both idle and and fast idle. So my catalyst is totally doing its job.

But it failed on CO (monoxides), and only just, it was at 0.5% vol. Monoxides are created in the cylinder.

After the test they let me play with the gas analyser with my laptop plugged in.

If I lean it out it then passes the CO monoxides test, but then its too lean so the lambda is above 1.03..... literally it ends up at 1.06

Now I think although my exhaust seal pretty well, I think there is still a bit of a leak.

So its skewing the lambda readings, which then required excessive fuelling to sort out, which creates the monoxides. It smells rich and fuelly.

I'll go back next week with a revised setup.

Shucks.. sorry to hear that man.. send me a pm as to which mot center let you plug in and test with the analyzer?

It was a special favour as I help them out. But its not required and will not solve anything. I am bound to secrecy about these experiments and misuse of live in test equipment!

It was interesting to see the real time relationship between Lambda and CO.

Leaner fuelling reduce monoxides as there is enough oxygen to spread about, and richer mixtures increase monoxides as there isn't the oxygen there to complete all the reactions properly.

I just couldn't quite get a passable compromise between lambda requirements and CO% volume which would pass the requirements. One way or the other it would just push one into the "red".

I think if:-

• exhaust system is 99% air tight
• target lambda is correct and held stable on the wideband
• timing is truly at real world 10 to 12 degrees
• cylinder balance is reasonably equal with almost no misfire

then the emissions test requirements will be passed.

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 20, 2024, 07:13thanks man, just I have been keeping a close eye on it.
At it happens right now is the first time it's registering as "normal" so looking forward to not feeling so utterly rubbish and hopefully getting some actual sleep!

The good news, the body has sorted it out and you're on the mend.
The better news, the body, (read. natural immune system) is now equipped to deal with the same type of infection in toot suit time, should you encounter it again.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 20, 2024, 19:12It was a special favour as I help them out. But its not required and will not solve anything. I am bound to secrecy about these experiments and misuse of live in test equipment!

It was interesting to see the real time relationship between Lambda and CO.

Leaner fuelling reduce monoxides as there is enough oxygen to spread about, and richer mixtures increase monoxides as there isn't the oxygen there to complete all the reactions properly.

I just couldn't quite get a passable compromise between lambda requirements and CO% volume which would pass the requirements. One way or the other it would just push one into the "red".

I think if:-

• exhaust system is 99% air tight
• target lambda is correct and held stable on the wideband
• timing is truly at real world 10 to 12 degrees
• cylinder balance is reasonably equal with almost no misfire

then the emissions test requirements will be passed.

No worries - and I'm assuming your cat is a 200 cel of nondescript origin possibly like mine?

Hi All - logs all emailed out.

Managed to finally get back to the car...
All updates implemented were as follows:
Since the ignition timing now works I tried a variety of values between 11 & 12.5, for the idle reference values I was slowly bringing these down (that was right wasn't it??) in an effort to make it idle smoothly. Varied success... I think the stumbling is gone but I can hear it sort of surging/sucking in air.. lamba values sort of where they were before?

Cheers,

John

So here we have idling (once warmed up)
(https://i.ibb.co/LnT8PZd/24th-high-rev.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LnT8PZd)

And higher rev
(https://i.ibb.co/px69Dk9/24th-idle-rev.jpg) (https://ibb.co/px69Dk9)

I think the "stumbling" is gone... which is a big bonus.. but the lambda value are still up and done... things don't seem to be going "smoothly".. is this a function of timing, fueling. and idle reference values? Or do I start with the ignition timing and then adjust fueling and idle ref values as best I can to effect smoothness?

When working on an analogue car, I always set the timing before messing with the carb.

Spark first, fuel second.

Quote from: Carolyn on September 24, 2024, 17:30When working on an analogue car, I always set the timing before messing with the carb.

Spark first, fuel second.

Thank you @Carolyn - in this situation where it appears I can set the timing between 8-12 according to theory.. I'm trying to read up on identifying the "right" timing to set.. if anyone has any resources on which to read up on from I'd welcome them (the world is awash with opinions) as I'm operating under the assumption that i have to figure this out as a starting point.

When doing an analogue car, I would set static timing at 10 degrees BTDC, which is probably equivalent to 12 degrees BTDC at 900 rpm as the bob weight mechanism in the distributor starts to advance the timing.

Quote from: jvanzyl on September 24, 2024, 16:59So here we have idling (once warmed up)
(https://i.ibb.co/LnT8PZd/24th-high-rev.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LnT8PZd)

And higher rev
(https://i.ibb.co/px69Dk9/24th-idle-rev.jpg) (https://ibb.co/px69Dk9)

I think the "stumbling" is gone... which is a big bonus.. but the lambda value are still up and done... things don't seem to be going "smoothly".. is this a function of timing, fueling. and idle reference values? Or do I start with the ignition timing and then adjust fueling and idle ref values as best I can to effect smoothness?

Have you got EGO correction on ?

I'll ping you a pm with my email address for the log.

Ok spotted a few things to try.

I've not reviewed the log yet as I'm on an older version of the software.

Your virtual target you have ticked on idle control is set to 300rpm, I wonder if it's trying to fight down to 300rpm.


(https://i.ibb.co/stTW5Y7/20240924-204838.jpg) (https://ibb.co/stTW5Y7)


You've also got some cam timing in at low rpm, I'd have this set at zero in idle range.

I'll download the most recent software and have a look at the log now.

(https://i.ibb.co/dGtvgGk/20240924-205322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dGtvgGk)

So.. PID control and ignition control are both off.
As I understand it.. EGO has been renamed something to do with short term fuel correction. @simonrobinson found this out earlier in the thread.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September  9, 2024, 21:54To look at your logs I have had to upgrade my EMU software from 2.138 to 2.169 and that is why you cannot find EGO correction. "EGO correction replaced by Short term trim strategy." is in the version control of ECU master. So the magic datalogging value is now Short term trim corr.

It appears they have changed lambda target strategy but anyway I digress! And now it only kicks in outside of tickover.

During your idle it is not using any sort of fuel trim, that sits solid at 100%, it is though using "idle ign. correction" to hamper or excite the engine speed to achieve your desired idle speed. The ignition is set to 8.5 degrees on your table at the idle spot. But its pulling it to about 5 degrees to achieve your idle.

Now I think, if you mess with your throttle body stop, or get your idle control valve working it would hit idle control better, making your idle AFR not wobble about. But this is a world of last minute MOT fixes! It appears your idle control motor is not doing anything, its just staying at 42% / 137 steps. Maybe it does not work very well or is not setup. And thus ECUMaster is falling back to ignition retarding/advancing to chase the target idle.

You could just manually change your ignition timing in the idle cells to 5 degrees to see if that stabilises you. And your target idle is set to 950rpm while you are only idling at 900rpm, so its trying to hit a target it cannot reach. Maybe you should change the warm "idle target rpm" to 900rpm.

A combination of changing the target speed to what it can achieve, with the timing it uses to achieve it might stabilise your ARF's allowing you to tune that better. Its just hunting about in PID loops trying to achieve the impossible at the moment.


Now for your fast idle tests which are pretty good. You are hitting 110% Short term trim corr. for it to hit your target of 1.00 lambda, it needs more fuel in these cells. Now that one line has been increased to 41 / 42.... its needs the table to be smooth, can't have the values above and below it going up and down!

(https://i.ibb.co/KGp21xC/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-21-30-56.png) (https://ibb.co/KGp21xC) (https://i.ibb.co/tBXPbSY/Screenshot-at-2024-09-09-21-37-34.png) (https://ibb.co/tBXPbSY)

The aim of the game is for your VE table to get you close to bang on to your target lambda. Using closed loop correction factor to get you on target is not cool and will always lead to wobbly feedback loops. Try that sort of tuning strategy on WOT under boost and you are playing dangerous games, remarkably modern ecus manage to fill the gap pretty quickly, but its seriously uncool.

So looking around for what would be likely leads me to this little table here:

(https://i.ibb.co/7GLY2mJ/Short-term-trim.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7GLY2mJ)

which is showing "on"? I take it this should be off?

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 24, 2024, 21:00Ok spotted a few things to try.

I've not reviewed the log yet as I'm on an older version of the software.

Your virtual target you have ticked on idle control is set to 300rpm, I wonder if it's trying to fight down to 300rpm.


(https://i.ibb.co/stTW5Y7/20240924-204838.jpg) (https://ibb.co/stTW5Y7)


You've also got some cam timing in at low rpm, I'd have this set at zero in idle range.

I'll download the most recent software and have a look at the log now.

(https://i.ibb.co/dGtvgGk/20240924-205322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dGtvgGk)

Brilliant, thank you @Gaz2405
Be prepared for the EGO to dissapear when you update to the later version of the software..
I'll check on the virtual target and update the cam timing at idle.

Thanks again!

Think I've found it.

It's your short term fuel trim.  Turn trim off and see if they stabilise.


(https://i.ibb.co/PTn8Wzz/20240924-212431.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PTn8Wzz)

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 24, 2024, 21:25Think I've found it.

It's your short term fuel trim.  Turn trim off and see if they stabilise.


(https://i.ibb.co/PTn8Wzz/20240924-212431.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PTn8Wzz)

It's only doing minor trimming, like a few %, but it'll be enough to give you the slight imbalance, especially if the PID settings are spot on.

I'd recommend pulling 0.5% out of your VE on your idle cells, turning off short term trim and see where it sits.

I don't think you'll be far off then.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 24, 2024, 21:29It's only doing minor trimming, like a few %, but it'll be enough to give you the slight imbalance, especially if the PID settings are spot on.

Excellent! Looking forward to tomorrow. 😁

It would have been tonight, but it turns out I actually had the flu last week and that's why walking upstairs is a bit of an effort.. so I'm in bed now... But otherwise I'd be so in there!

logs and maps emailed out..

I took off the short term correction and it makes a difference.. definitely feels like all changes I make are not "softened" by it..
I put the VVTI stuff to zero around idle.

As you'll see by the logs, I tried a "variety" of things with regards to timing to see if it was indeed at the right spot.. and I think 12 does seem to cause the least amount of issues.

I tried to amend the idle target from 950 to 900 - that didn't work out.
I tried to adjust the idle ref table.. and I think it's better.. by measurement of it's sitting around the target idle.

I attempted to increase the revs and noticed that it was going super lean, so tried again this time cell by cell updating the fuel table till I was around lambda.. no idea if I now have a bunch of fuel changes to undo now..

oh and I discovered some air bubbles had some how snuck into my charge cooler barrel, so these have been removed - the reason for mentioning it is that the clamps to put the thing back in had to be undone so if ever there is a risk of a boost leak, this is it.

below are screen grabs comparing ignition timing, afr, revs, VE and RPM..

engine turned on.. everyone's happy
(https://i.ibb.co/rb0DRN7/Beginning.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rb0DRN7)

First hold to 2k to help the engine warm up  and noticing the lean conditions..
(https://i.ibb.co/HHznr3G/1st-hold-to-2k-rpm.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HHznr3G)
I then start messing around with the ignition to "check" that 12 is the right spot.. (long story short it appears to be).

(https://i.ibb.co/KxnH9Sh/ignition-to-11-5-reduce-fuel-to-lean-out.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KxnH9Sh)

(https://i.ibb.co/D7ct5VQ/ign-back-to-12-wondering-revs-and-afr.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D7ct5VQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/cvhNjnd/ignition-to-12-5-more-fuel-changes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cvhNjnd)

(https://i.ibb.co/CsP2Y8B/ignition-to-11-further-fuel-changes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CsP2Y8B)

With the ignition then back to 12 ( I even tried 10 for a bit). I then started increasing the revs to see what would happen to lambda. In summary, as I moved through each cell it would go lean and only return to lambda with a large amount of fuel dumped in.. this I think means the ignition timing was quite off for these values?


(https://i.ibb.co/xSTbPhW/1400-fueling-increased.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xSTbPhW)

(https://i.ibb.co/h1rFXmJ/raising-revs-to-1600-lean.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h1rFXmJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/gRBJXkH/2000-fueling-increased.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gRBJXkH)

(https://i.ibb.co/Tvs6M8m/up-to-2300-with-fuel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tvs6M8m)

(https://i.ibb.co/8dXZt0h/2400-rpm-lam-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8dXZt0h)

And then I let it go back to idle and it resumed it's sort of "hunting for revs..

(https://i.ibb.co/cXs133X/back-to-idle-and-wondering-afr-revs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cXs133X)

The timing should advance as the revs rise.  Probably to around 32 degrees at 3500 rpm.

Quote from: Carolyn on September 25, 2024, 13:26The timing should advance as the revs rise.  Probably to around 32 degrees at 3500 rpm.

ok.. that's very much not what I currently have.. 

(https://i.ibb.co/kHnmGKB/Ignition-timing-table.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kHnmGKB)

In terms of general tuning, if you have a "safe" amount of fueling.. and say your ignition timing is set to 12.

if the car would actually like a different value for timing, would it go richer the closer you got to it? So in this example, the car actually liked to have 11, and with that inputted, the AFR would go rich so I would then reduce the fuel. And likewise from the starting point of 12, if any value I entered created a "lean" condition then I'm assuming that it was happy at 12 and to leave it be?

Aside from this, it's a bit weird how the AFR value doesn't sit still..

Do not take the tables as truthful values on that ignition table.
Your "Primary Trigger - Input Delay" is set to zero which is impossible.
In the real world it will be between  50 and 75 micro seconds.

If Input Delay is set to zero, and you lock the timing to say 10 degrees.
Then you got an actual timing light out, as you rev up the engine it would still advance.
Even though the timing is locked at 10 degrees. We refer to this as drift, as it its drifting from the target.

So you will currently have more advance than is on your table.

Pretty much every ECUmaster setup falls into this trap, because the default Input Delay is 0.
Other ECUs like Haltec etc default to something more sensible like 50uS

With 0 Input Delay at 6000 rpm it'll be giving 15 to 25 degrees more advance than it says on the table.

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 25, 2024, 20:18Do not take the tables as truthful values on that ignition table.
Your "Primary Trigger - Input Delay" is set to zero which is impossible.
In the real world it will be between  50 and 75 micro seconds.

If Input Delay is set to zero, and you lock the timing to say 10 degrees.
Then you got an actual timing light out, as you rev up the engine it would still advance.
Even though the timing is locked at 10 degrees. We refer to this as drift, as it its drifting from the target.

So you will currently have more advance than is on your table.

Pretty much every ECUmaster setup falls into this trap, because the default Input Delay is 0.
Other ECUs like Haltec etc default to something more sensible like 50uS

With 0 Input Delay at 6000 rpm it'll be giving 15 to 25 degrees more advance than it says on the table.

erm.. so I'm assuming that there is a setting that I can update with this variable?

in other news I've discovered the "comparison" tool... the grand summary of all of the changes that have been made so far:

(https://i.ibb.co/m66Vcsn/summary-of-table-changes-till-now.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m66Vcsn)

(https://i.ibb.co/KNHjcHY/summary-of-parameter-changes-till-now.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KNHjcHY)

Anyway... tomorrow will see more "fiddling" I guess!

If you want to have a proper ignition table that is a truthful representation then you need to get the timing light out and mess with that delay value till there is no drift between 800rpm and your red line.

with this new "feature" of comparison it to compare the map that I got from RRR with one that had the injector wizard run on it to see what other tables were affected by the change in injectors.. guess what? There's only ONE:

(https://i.ibb.co/ByXBjXk/changes-when-updating-the-injectors.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ByXBjXk)

oh and no matter what injector you select from the wizard, when you go back to the wizard to check what you selected you'll be presented with the "atomizer" value above.. nice.

So this will be on the list of "to fiddle with" .. tomorrow.. I mean, if it's only changing one table and I'm looking at something just for the MOT rev range.. shouldn't be tooooo bad..? Right?

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 25, 2024, 20:50If you want to have a proper ignition table that is a truthful representation then you need to get the timing light out and mess with that delay value till there is no drift between 800rpm and your red line.

well.. I guess I can try that.. lets see what amazon can throw at me!

Also note on timing; advance goes up with rpm, until you hit boost, at which point it retards again.
In case you're wondering why it goes back down at higher loads.
Fame propagation speeds suddenly pick up with boost and you don't need as much advance.

Quote from: shnazzle on September 25, 2024, 22:46Also note on timing; advance goes up with rpm, until you hit boost, at which point it retards again.
In case you're wondering why it goes back down at higher loads.
Fame propagation speeds suddenly pick up with boost and you don't need as much advance.

Thank you for explaining that!!

OK! So fired up, waited till it was heading into the 950 target rpm territory and starting to exhibit the "wondering AFR". I had tried altering the idle ref table to have significantly higher values to see if this was somehow responsible but to no avail. I also updated the virtual target max value to be 950 (up from 350) but I don't  think it did anything.

So throwing caution to the wind I decided to choose the deka 630 injectors from the drop down list and NO more wondering AFR (like before) and the engine note sounded better.
It did however drop down to the low 70's in terms of AFR, I was smashing the minus button to pull fuel but it barely made a difference, I think I managed to bring the value up to 0.76 possibly before shutting it off as I was getting worried I'd be fouling everything due to the excessive richness. I did also try altering the timing slightly but it wasn't doing anything that I could see.

SO! I'm calling this a positive due to the simple fact the engine sounded better and the AFR wasn't all over the place. I would however be very appreciative of your advice on how to respond to this situation in the right way.

Spot where the injector settings are updated...


(https://i.ibb.co/TqtDsTG/injectors-updated-super-rich.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TqtDsTG)


Yes it's rich.. but LOOK how flat the AFR is.. I suppose it could be clogged with fuel somehow...

(https://i.ibb.co/XWPg6Tf/Yes-it-s-rich-but-look-how-stable-the-AFR-is.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XWPg6Tf)

I'm away in Italy at the moment, but will send you over my settings I had on the emu black when I used these injectors, along with th ve table.

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 26, 2024, 14:46I'm away in Italy at the moment, but will send you over my settings I had on the emu black when I used these injectors, along with th ve table.

That would be very decent of you Gary. Most appreciated! Enjoy Italy!

Is your exhaust 100% air tight now?

Quote from: simonrobinson on September 27, 2024, 08:51Is your exhaust 100% air tight now?

I think it is.. when I cover the exhaust I can't hear any hisses, and it's definitely doing it's best to shove air past me.

I've been trying to study up and read up on how to get my idle etc working correctly and it's occurred to me that I'm looking at the wrong thing.

My second mot test passed at normal idle speed but failed at the fast idle because of the exhaust leak.

So the area I should be focusing on is the fast idle surely?

Now that I've figured out why my ignition timing was being all weird it kind of makes sense now to me to put everything back up where it was (minus the ignition table thing) and focus on getting a stable lambda and clean burn at the 3k limit?

(https://i.ibb.co/DPdNV7f/IMG-7442.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DPdNV7f)

I mean I wasn't fussed about the idle back then.. at least I don't think I was.. so surely it's a matter of going back to where I was and then changing the ignition and ve table to get a clean burn (literally putting a cloth by the exhaust to see how much fuel gets dumped) ? Or am I just circling a drain here of wishful thinking?

Where are you based J?

Quote from: Gaz2405 on September 27, 2024, 19:13Where are you based J?

Near Watford. Hertfordshire. Would totally hire a trailer and drive it anywhere though.

You are really not far off the standard on that test sheet. It was very close on monoxides, bit fuelly, and a bit too much oxygen. It wasn't a million miles out.

I really think on that car if your exhaust is air tight, the tune is about right on the AFR's + timing then it should pass.

Just see if you thrash the living pants out of it before the MOT so the cat can be as hot as possible as it drastically improves the abilty to eat HC's and convert CO to CO2.

Any updates?

I'm quite late to this thread, happy to share my map.

I had a lot of trouble getting through the first MOT, needing rrr you remotely tune it a few times. Second year it passed relatively easy

Just had it's third MOT and was told it was terrible to get through. I am planning on a new exhaust anyway so I think I might fork out for a new catalyst to make it easier passing emissions when I retune with new injectors

Quote from: mr9 on October 19, 2024, 13:31Any updates?

I'm quite late to this thread, happy to share my map.

I had a lot of trouble getting through the first MOT, needing rrr you remotely tune it a few times. Second year it passed relatively easy

Just had it's third MOT and was told it was terrible to get through. I am planning on a new exhaust anyway so I think I might fork out for a new catalyst to make it easier passing emissions when I retune with new injectors

No updates yet.. I was ill for a while and lost the ability to breathe properly. I'm still where I was basically... Would very much appreciate your sharing your map!
I'll send you a pm with my email address.

Right! Bit of an update.
I had a remote session today with Greg, and now have the car idling much smoother (no hunting from what I can tell) albeit at like 900-1000rpm and it starts better.

I've included the log from the data logger as well as what was captured live via the software whilst the laptop running, it should be same it's just the data is pre setup with different charts.

https://1drv.ms/f/c/60aca0059167de5b/EhqGWwYlN85Guuvsj8R6NO8BS5h2DrG0EGI2spBCXixGeA?e=Ogbs9m

Greg is reviewing the data today and will come back to me for further changes.