just a query, the front tyres are 185's and are puny compared to the back 1's. this makes the car very light and a bit crappy around corners fast. if i put 205's in the front and back will that make a differenc to handling or restrict most turning movement?
what do you guys think?
The reason for the wider rear tyres is because that's where the majority of the weight is. If you remove this stagger you'll have one very twitchy car which will probably put you in a ditch. Toyota knew what they were doing when they set this little car up.
If you are finding that the front end is a little light, try lowering the tyre pressures a little, making sure that the spare wheel is in the frunk and possibly move the toolkit in there too. Check the shocks are ok (I don't know how old your car is). If it's still too "understeery", add a front strut brace and possibly lower member braces. After that, perhaps move up to 195 at the front, but I wouldn't go any further than that.
Far from being crappy in fast corners, it should allow you to balance the car nicely on the throttle and perform controlled 4 wheel drifts (on provate roads of course). s:D :D s:D
Actually, you might just like to try some driving tuition on an airfield day. It's amazing how much your driving style alone can affect the handling.
Edit: Oh, and it's not just the tyres. The wheels are actually narrower on the front by 1/2 an inch too.
I've been thinking along those lines as well.
However, it can corner very well on standard tyres as I found out on my driver training day at North Weald. However you have to know when to apply the throttle.
To go around really tight corners e.g. the cones on the driver training day you learn that you absolutely cannot apply any throttle. As soon as you do (even a small amount) the car will run wide. I soon forgot all notions of power sliding around the course.
During normal driving, I nearly always lift when going into a corner just to get the front tucked in.
On track, I trail brake and brake mid corner (if it's running wide). The car is really adjustable.
Having said all that about holding off the throttle, I've also had just as many instances where applying more power through the bend has made the car corner even tighter and I've had to wind off some lock to avoid hitting the apex.
It's a very rewarding car to drive properly.
When I put my sensible head on I think Toyota have got the balance right with mine. If I drive it hard it will understeer like its front wheel drive e.g. safe, but if I'm more measured it behaves wonderfully. If I increased the front grip I'd probably spin it.
Jason
just ask yourself one question, how many RWD cars do you see with same size tyres all round??
not sure but isnt the elise about the same size, and they handle much better!!
Elise is a bit different, it's lighter, lower, and structurally stronger.
But, being mid engined, it still has to be driven in a similar way to the 2.
A lot of Mk2 owners change their fronts to reduce understeer/increase oversteer.
Jason
I'll try and put this as simply as I can...
If you want to put your car into the nearest ditch/wall/lake, then by all means put the same size wheels and tyres front and back.
If, however, you like your car in one piece, then I'd always have staggered tyres. But that's just me. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "leon_in_uk"not sure but isnt the elise about the same size, and they handle much better!!
I really wouldn't say they handled "much" better - yes, better, but it's pretty close, especially when you consider the price differential (and I think where the Elise really gains is feedback - non assisted breaks, no power steering etc to rob feel).
Anyway.. having followed one around Elvington, there wasn't
that much in it, and had I been a better driver, I'm sure it would have been even closer (I'd go as far as to say that Lee would have kept up with the Elise where I couldn't).
What I did realise, though, after Elvington was simply that I
didn't know how to drive..
Before going, I'd thought that the car was pretty hard to judge, took corners quite slowly really for fear of the back end stepping out or the front end understeering.
After a day there, though, my corner speeds (even on the road) are far, far higher - since now I know exactly how to make the front end tuck in, and power around the corner. The car was pretty much
perfectly balanced - outright grip could have been a little higher if I'd reduced tyre pressures, but then they'd have rolled over too much - it could be provoked into oversteer, made to understeer or simply go around the corner perfectly.
IMHO, going up anything more than one size on the fronts (to 195s) would leave you with a
very twitchy car, and gain you nothing on the road. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you'd only get any benefit from going to 195s on the track, where you're at 10/10ths.
If your car really is handling that badly (like an understeery barge) then there's something wrong - your tyres are toast, your suspension is dead, or the alignment is a mile out (or the chassis is bent).
Right, now if someone could pass me a step ladder, I'll get down off my soap box!
Quote from: "aaronjb"After a day there, though, my corner speeds (even on the road) are far, far higher - since now I know exactly how to make the front end tuck in, and power around the corner.
What's the secret, in layman's terms?
Lotus Elise - front tyre 175/55 R16 and rear tyre 225/45 R17
Lotus Exige - front tyre 195/50 R16 and rear tyre 225/45 R17
s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Quote from: "Ernie Ball"Quote from: "aaronjb"What's the secret, in layman's terms?
errr.... learning how to drive and control your vehicle very well in the conditions YOU the driver choose!
(there's not just one method for every state you put your car in)
Quote from: "Tamajamma"Quote from: "Ernie Ball"What's the secret, in layman's terms?
errr.... learning how to drive and control your vehicle very well in the conditions YOU the driver choose!
(there's not just one method for every state you put your car in)
Yup, what he said.. s;) ;) s;) (Didn't know we had anyone from Oz on the board btw - welcome s;) ;) s;) )
On the track, I found that I really didn't get any understeer at all - even on the 60+mph 180degree right hander at the top of the track, or the right-left-right complex before the pit exit, even though both were corners with lots of surface changes and bumps.
I drove 'racing style', though - that is, brake in a straight line when approaching the corner, wind on some lock, balance the car's weight on the throttle (too much will shift the weight backward, and most likely understeer, lift off and the weight shifts forward and potentially sends the back end out), then more or less stand on the accellerator at the apex.
Worked great on track - I couldn't have done quite the same in a turbo roadster or Mk2 Turbo, as the extra power would mean feathering the throttle back in after the apex.
Braking while in the corner did one of two things, depending on entry speed - it would push the front out, in low speed corners (which means most corners on the road, really, aside from motorway slip roads), while in the high speed 180 degree corner it would 'unsettle' the car, and bring the back end out quite nicely (as I found out while trying to match the Elise's corner speed - I chickened out, braked, and ended up sideways s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I'd probably have been fine if I hadn't braked, too).
I really didn't get any 'power on oversteer' going, aside from on the right-left part of the right-left-right complex - but even then, my car didn't really have the guts to send the back end out.
Thing is - that's all very different to driving on the road.. At least, it is for me.
On the road, you don't have the benefit of knowing exactly where the road is going (unless it's one you know well), and, more importantly, you don't know what's around the corner in terms of wayward pedestrians/spilt oil/tractors/cars etc - so I'd never driver as hard on the road, personally.
But I also tend to find that on the road I'm 'trail braking' into corners a lot of the time, which does tend to push the front out in my car, and leaves the car quite unsettled. I guess that happens because I never know quite how sharp the corner is, IYSWIM, wheras on track, you know exactly how sharp it is..
Anyway - long story short..
It's all but impossible to explain in text - best thing is to get yourself on a driver training day, or failing that an airfield day (I'd recommend Elvington to anyone, now, after doing it myself - there's literally nothing to hit except for the odd cone.. oh and the grass, which I did end up driving down a couple of times s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ). You learn
so much about car control it's unreal, even when you're not driving at 11/10ths like I was (as I needed to save my tyres).
A
lot of what you learn will then translate back to the road - but not everything - like I say, you never drive the same on the road because you just don't know what's around the corner.. Even if you can guarantee no cars being there, there's still the risk of an unexpected pothole or oil slick that will throw you into a wall..
Dear lord I rambled s:) :) s:)
Interesting comments Aaron.
The only thing that confuses me is your comments about braking mid bend and trail braking causing the front to run wide. Exactly the opposite should happen unless you've lock the front wheels.
Jason
Quote from: "mrsmr2"The only thing that confuses me is your comments about braking mid bend and trail braking causing the front to run wide. Exactly the opposite should happen unless you've lock the front wheels.
On track, then yep, trail braking (reasonably hard and at high speed) would make the back end swing out - exactly as it did when I was following the Elise s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
But on the road it tends to make me understeer - I think largely because the (well, my) corner speeds, and therefore lateral forces, are too low to make the rear break traction.. If I was going faster on the road then I imagine it would do exactly the same thing as on track - but I just don't drive that fast on the road..
Quote from: "aaronjb"(Didn't know we had anyone from Oz on the board btw - welcome s;) ;) s;) )
Hi Chaps ( enough about the cricket, orright!! s:evil: :evil: s:evil: ) and thanks for the welcome.
Excuse me for butting in. I've been a member for just a little while and bumped into this thread looking for tips about tyres... about to put new rubber for both track day (currently favour Dunlop DZ02G's) and street (want s-03s but cant get 15's in Oz s:( :( s:( ).
It's great to read your track story... clearly fun ace!
The two basic ways of getting the front end to dig in before turning are trail braking i.e carrying a small amount of braking, after you have got the main braking done, into the bend - this puts the c of g of the car towards the front i.e more weight over the front wheels so that you can get the car to turn in better. The other is to lift off the accelrator just before turning in - this is more relevant for corners attacked without having to brake. There is actually another that can be used and that's the Scandinavian flick - basically jink the steering wheel the opposite way to the corner before then turning into the corner normally - this is a bit more extreme and not normally required and the degree to which you have to do this decreases as the cornering speed increases. If you are fairly near the limit of the tyres then the jink required to get the car turning in better may hardly be perceptible.