Hi guys
just a quick heads up to a company in the north east I have just used to remove my pre-cats (done while 2 was in for servicing).
ive asked for a price for just doing pre-cats and they have said for anyone mentioning the MR2ROC they would remove pre-cats for 55 quid including vat.
they will also be happy to look after your 2 as the owner is Ex Toyota trained.
the company is called S-CARS and they are based in spennymoor Co Durham.
contact CARL on 01388811855
Cheers
Dave
I might be up for that. Did you watch them do it? Does it sound and/or feel different afterwards?
I'm very paranoid about work being done properly (or at all) at garages!
Likewise, I dont want any bits left floating about in these. Where abouts are you all in the north east by the way??
I think im going to pop down and have a chat with him about it.
Sounds like a good deal s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "northum"Did you watch them do it?
i didnt watch carl remove my pre-cats but im in the motortrade myself and know of carl and his work.
my 2 was the first hes ever removed precats on so he followed GSB's instructions from this forum that i printed out for him.
i checked the precats were gone through the o2 sensor hole and all looks well.
Quote from: "ChrisHumes"Where abouts are you all in the north east by the way??
I think I'm going to pop down and have a chat with him about it.
hi chris
im just outside of Durham City, I will be at S-Cars on thursday disscussing other things i want doing to my 2 so pop along it will be nice to meet other northeast 2 drivers
I think I will give Carl a ring then, thanks!
Nice to see another 2 driver with a bike, I have a K5 Suzuki SV650S s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I used to have K3 SV650S Cracking bike
Chris,
It says Newcastle in my profile, but its Cramlington really for those who know the area!
Quote from: "northum"I think I will give Carl a ring then, thanks!
tell him you have spoke to me (he knows me as dave from turners of sedgefield) and mention the MR2ROC.
Cheers
I'm enjoying mine that's for sure. It saves the car from getting a hammering because it gets caned on most of the sunny days. It's a problem knowing which to take out sometimes! I'll probably try a 4 cylinder 600 next time round.
Quote from: "northum"IIt's a problem knowing which to take out sometimes!
thats easy the bikes for going fast the 2 is for posing s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Will do, it would be a relief to get rid of the cats. I would have done it myself before but I'm no mechanic and the bolts are rusty and stubborn s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
and I'm not good enough to oversteer a bike s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
same here
thats why im in car sales not car repairs s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "northum"I think I will give Carl a ring then, thanks!
Let me know how it goes. My warranty expires at end of April and will be looking to get this done asap after.
Cheers Dave. Thought I was going to have to start pestering Markiii soon, and make a long trip down south. This might save me some petrol money!
Johnny
I've booked in with Carl for a couple of weeks time. I will update when its done!
My pre-cats are out s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Carl did this for me yesterday. He was happy to let me stick my nose in and see what was happening. He made it look easy but I wouldn't recommend trying this as a complete novice as it will take hours of discomfort and frustration! Experienced mechanics have a way with these things. Its also made a lot easier by having all the right kit like impact sockets and air powered tools. Not to mention a lift.
My pre-cats actually looked fine but you don't know that til you've virtually got them out do you!
I have been keeping an eye out for any engine warning lights since but none have appeared as yet (only about 40 miles covered). Difficult to judge any performance increase, although the sound does change, not much louder but sounds like it is breathing easier as you would expect.
The only slight downside is that one of the top bolts holding on the main heatshield snapped. So now its just held on with three of the four (replaced with new bolts).
I'll be keeping a careful eye for a few weeks but I think long term I'm happier with them out!
Took a roadster to Carl today. He gutted the precats in no time and was very helpful. He even sorted out the heat sheilds on the exhaust too. If your in the North East and havent had your precats out, I would reccomend him very highly. And its a very good price. s:D :D s:D
will consider it
Quote from: "MR-S Turbo"Took a roadster to Carl today. He gutted the precats in no time and was very helpful. He even sorted out the heat sheilds on the exhaust too. If your in the North East and havent had your precats out, I would reccomend him very highly. And its a very good price. s:D :D s:D
good to see you had a good experience carls a top bloke
what does removing thr precat do,,,,will it have any way that will damage the engine s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "alancdavis"what does removing thr precat do,,,,will it have any way that will damage the engine s:? :? s:?
no Alan it wont damage the engine, but leaveing them in could possibly lead to them breaking up and damageing your engine. Mine have been out for 2 years now and no issues at all. Remove them before they fail is the only thing we can say.
right, just had my 40k service at toyota, so booked car in for next friday pm to have the precats done.
Im a bit nervous that toyota may spot they have been removed if i have any problems as I need it serviced at toyota for two years for the warranty. should i be worried?
Quote from: "ChrisHumes"right, just had my 40k service at toyota, so booked car in for next friday pm to have the precats done.
I'm a bit nervous that toyota may spot they have been removed if i have any problems as I need it serviced at toyota for two years for the warranty. should i be worried?
I doubt Toyota will notice they have gone. And they know its a common problem anyway that they break up and fall out by them selves.
would anyone have a map of where s-cars in, im going there tomorrow!
No map I found it OK. One word of warning, it is actually inside a big compound which has lots of Electrolux (I think) signs on it. So you actually need to talk to the bloke on the gate to get let in.
I'm assuming its still in the same place. They were talking about moving somewhere else when I was there.
S-cars is still in the same place and your right northum it is on the electrolux site, spenny moor ind est , between spennymoor and a small village called kirk merrington .
just to let you guys know I went there last friday to have pre-cats removed.
S-cars knows toyota's and had my car finished in hour and a half. top guys.
i really recommend getting this done, car now sounds fantastic with H&S, Apexi intake and precats removed, its backfiring and rumbling away nicely!
He told me the garage was moving out of the industrial estate, and next to the main road in the next two weeks so ring before you go.
hope this helps people!
Hi all,
Just spoke to Chris at S-CARS. They have now re-located to just down the road behind the Frog and Ferret pub on the roundabout. If you are coming from the A1M then take the Durham services turn off at junction 61 and follow Spennymoor/Bishop Auckland. At 1st roundabout take a right, at 2nd roundabout go straight over ( there is a McDonalds on the roundabout ) 300 yards and there is a mini roundabout - keep left, 300 yards and you will come to a big roundabout - at this roundabout you will see the Frog and Ferret on the left, white and green pub, S-CARS is behind the pub.
I've got my MR-S booked in for Monday morning - will let you know how I get on. Quoted me £45 for the job...... Cracking value that considering the price of a new engine..!!
Cheers
Michael
Aye deffo worth it for 45 quid. It isnt worth getting your hands dirty for that type of money. He does a top job.
Been down to S-Cars this morning for my TRD Quick Shifter fitted. They did a really good job and at a reasonable price too.
Michael's directions were spot on getting there.I found it no problem. It was coming back I got lost s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Phil
I know this is a real zombie thread but does anyone know if these cars are still working on/knowledgable about these cars?
These are quite simple cars that mostly use parts that are in common with other Toyotas of the same period.
A well recommended local family-run garage will be able to do almost all jobs on one of these.
You really don't need a 'specialist'.
What special knowledge you might need is readily available right here, and it can be passed on to the mechanic of your choice.
Quote from: Carolyn on August 25, 2020, 16:52These are quite simple cars that mostly use parts that are in common with other Toyotas of the same period.
A well recommended local family-run garage will be able to do almost all jobs on one of these.
You really don't need a 'specialist'.
What special knowledge you might need is readily available right here, and it can be passed on to the mechanic of your choice.
Thanks for that. To be honest, I was mostly wondering if they're still prepared to bash the living hell out of a manfiold with a chisel, my usual friendly mechanic is a little too "proper" for that job I suspect.
Just thinking ahead for buying a car as I don't have a driveway so DIY isn't really viable.
Quote from: bigfootisblurry on August 25, 2020, 16:58Quote from: Carolyn on August 25, 2020, 16:52These are quite simple cars that mostly use parts that are in common with other Toyotas of the same period.
A well recommended local family-run garage will be able to do almost all jobs on one of these.
You really don't need a 'specialist'.
What special knowledge you might need is readily available right here, and it can be passed on to the mechanic of your choice.
Thanks for that. To be honest, I was mostly wondering if they're still prepared to bash the living hell out of a manfiold with a chisel, my usual friendly mechanic is a little too "proper" for that job I suspect.
Just thinking ahead for buying a car as I don't have a driveway so DIY isn't really viable.
Bashing out is not recommended these days, replacing with a non precat manifold is the way forward.
Ask your friendly garage if they will do that?
Same as the above 2 posts.
Option 3. Leave it be.
I would be more inclined to see the subframe is in good condition before worrying about pre cats.
I bought my 2002 in June 2011, then it was considered correct to remove the precats. That is what I did and retained the OE manifold which again was not considered incorrect.
Then my car was 9 years old, the precats were perfect.
Today, the youngest of our cars is 14.
So, if the precats are still perfect (and that is considered to be an indicator of correct and regular oil and filter changes) as @ Ardent suggests an "Option 3" why not leave them in?
If they are less than perfect you have other things to consider.
Be aware that replacing the exhaust system is considered as a modification by car insurance companies.
@bigfootisblurry Quote
my usual friendly mechanic is a little too "proper" for that job I suspect.
Sounds exactly like the mechanic you want.
All good points, well made. I'm perhaps getting ahead of myself here, I don't have a car yet.
:))
The law of averages now would probably work out in favour of you finding a car that had already had the manifold replaced or the precats knocked out of the original anyway.
And if it hadn't then chances are any garage would charge you the same to remove the original and fit a replacement so if you do the man maths you might as well pay another £120 or so for such as the toyosport manifold and some fresh crush rings and call it a job well done.
Or alternatively ask them to remove the original and then go for dinner while you nip home with it and remove the precats.
I'm about to remove my standard manifold and swap it for an eBay jobby, so there is an OE manifold going spare if you need one. Removing the pre-cats is really easy, literally smash them out and clean up.
However, as has been said, they don't all grenade themselves so maybe leave it be. My car has done 130k now and the service history is non existent, yet on inspection (lambda sensors out, peer in the hole) the pre-cats look just fine.
Quote from: AdamR28 on August 28, 2020, 10:29I'm about to remove my standard manifold and swap it for an eBay jobby, so there is an OE manifold going spare if you need one. Removing the pre-cats is really easy, literally smash them out and clean up.
However, as has been said, they don't all grenade themselves so maybe leave it be. My car has done 130k now and the service history is non existent, yet on inspection (lambda sensors out, peer in the hole) the pre-cats look just fine.
Well well well.
That 2nd paragraph warms my heart. If only that info could get spread the same as pre cats = spontaneous implosion.
Quote from: Ardent on August 28, 2020, 15:14Quote from: AdamR28 on August 28, 2020, 10:29I'm about to remove my standard manifold and swap it for an eBay jobby, so there is an OE manifold going spare if you need one. Removing the pre-cats is really easy, literally smash them out and clean up.
However, as has been said, they don't all grenade themselves so maybe leave it be. My car has done 130k now and the service history is non existent, yet on inspection (lambda sensors out, peer in the hole) the pre-cats look just fine.
Well well well.
That 2nd paragraph warms my heart. If only that info could get spread the same as pre cats = spontaneous implosion.
Although this is indeed true, we should also bear in mind that they tend to fall out bottom first, even if they look reasonable from the top...😆
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 28, 2020, 18:05Quote from: Ardent on August 28, 2020, 15:14Quote from: AdamR28 on August 28, 2020, 10:29I'm about to remove my standard manifold and swap it for an eBay jobby, so there is an OE manifold going spare if you need one. Removing the pre-cats is really easy, literally smash them out and clean up.
However, as has been said, they don't all grenade themselves so maybe leave it be. My car has done 130k now and the service history is non existent, yet on inspection (lambda sensors out, peer in the hole) the pre-cats look just fine.
Well well well.
That 2nd paragraph warms my heart. If only that info could get spread the same as pre cats = spontaneous implosion.
Although this is indeed true, we should also bear in mind that they tend to fall out bottom first, even if they look reasonable from the top...😆
Having had just the one 2 a 2002 with around 45k mileage when I bought it in 2011, this was before my finding the ROC, but there was plentiful mention about precats, on Spyderchat and elsewhere that I found at the time.
The consensus then was they are better out than in. Also that deterioration could be seen via the sensor ports, the top.
I removed my precats although perfectly healthy, all the way through.
I have not read previously of any failure being from "bottom first", nor do I understand how that would be possible. My understanding being that the pre cat material is damaged by excessive oil particles exiting the engine, this being top down.
NB
At the time of my "operation" it was widely mentioned that the pre cat material was likely injurious to health and a mask should be worn and care taken. I also found that the material is robust and takes some persuasion to be removed.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 28, 2020, 18:05Quote from: Ardent on August 28, 2020, 15:14Quote from: AdamR28 on August 28, 2020, 10:29I'm about to remove my standard manifold and swap it for an eBay jobby, so there is an OE manifold going spare if you need one. Removing the pre-cats is really easy, literally smash them out and clean up.
However, as has been said, they don't all grenade themselves so maybe leave it be. My car has done 130k now and the service history is non existent, yet on inspection (lambda sensors out, peer in the hole) the pre-cats look just fine.
Well well well.
That 2nd paragraph warms my heart. If only that info could get spread the same as pre cats = spontaneous implosion.
Although this is indeed true, we should also bear in mind that they tend to fall out bottom first, even if they look reasonable from the top...😆
Everyday is a school day.
That's new to me. From where does that belief come and what evidence backs it up? As per
@Joesson surely the tops would have to fail before the lower.
Quote from: Ardent on August 28, 2020, 21:04Quote from: Call the midlife! on August 28, 2020, 18:05Quote from: Ardent on August 28, 2020, 15:14Quote from: AdamR28 on August 28, 2020, 10:29I'm about to remove my standard manifold and swap it for an eBay jobby, so there is an OE manifold going spare if you need one. Removing the pre-cats is really easy, literally smash them out and clean up.
However, as has been said, they don't all grenade themselves so maybe leave it be. My car has done 130k now and the service history is non existent, yet on inspection (lambda sensors out, peer in the hole) the pre-cats look just fine.
Well well well.
That 2nd paragraph warms my heart. If only that info could get spread the same as pre cats = spontaneous implosion.
Although this is indeed true, we should also bear in mind that they tend to fall out bottom first, even if they look reasonable from the top...😆
Everyday is a school day.
That's new to me. From where does that belief come and what evidence backs it up? As per @Joesson surely the tops would have to fail before the lower.
I'm surprised this is news tbh. I thought it was common knowledge by now :(
It's been seen a good few times by Dick Sloan. He's taken a fair few of these apart as you know :)
I saw the same on mine. Crack at the bottom. A couple of cells looked broken from the top is all
Nope.
Never heard of pre cats failing bottom up.
The ones that fail and end up blocking the cat HAVE to fail from the bottom if you think about it logically, if they failed from the top it wouldn't pass through the wadding and the lower comb and end up in the main cat.
The deterioration in the upper comb is what can harm the cylinders and cause the supposed oval bore syndrome but it's the vibrations that break them from the bottom. Apparently.
@shnazzle said
"I thought it was common knowledge by now".
On this occasion and for me this knowledge is not common. Not seen a mention of that on here.
As I mentioned my precats were perfect when removed so no personal experience only what I've read in 2011 and since.
So the theory now is that an inspection through the sensor ports will only indicate the
ending of the break down of the precat? Not the start as my previous reading/ understanding.
I get it now that the material must eventually fall out from the bottom and envisage that the precat becomes saturated, the pressure of the exhaust pushing the oil into the precats. In this case the precat material acts like a sponge and the saturation is greatest at the bottom and fails upwards.
Certainly not read that anywhere, but having written it down I do get it. Thank you.
PS
This postulation differs from the photographs taken by GSB in April 2004 when he wrote his "Precat removal how I did it "thread in the maintenance section.
The picture from above shows a small area of damage, the picture from below shows no signs.
Quote from: Joesson on August 28, 2020, 23:03@shnazzle said
"I thought it was common knowledge by now".
On this occasion and for me this knowledge is not common. Not seen a mention of that on here.
As I mentioned my precats were perfect when removed so no personal experience only what I've read in 2011 and since.
So the theory now is that an inspection through the sensor ports will only indicate the ending of the break down of the precat? Not the start as my previous reading/ understanding.
I get it now that the material must eventually fall out from the bottom and envisage that the precat becomes saturated, the pressure of the exhaust pushing the oil into the precats. In this case the precat material acts like a sponge and the saturation is greatest at the bottom and fails upwards.
Certainly not read that anywhere, but having written it down I do get it. Thank you.
To be fair, I have a draft of a new Buyer's Guide sitting here that I've been working on bit by bit for ages. The reason for the redraft is mainly the stuff around "oval bore" and that kind of rubbish. There's still an unknown or two but we can say with some certainty that pre-cats = oval bore is a myth.
- pre-cats have been seen to break from what looks like vibration or a heavy knock (a hard split/fracture in the honeycomb and big chunks dropping out the bottom).
- pre-cat material definitely degrades quickly when hot oil is introduced to it. This is caused by oil burning, it does not cause the oil burning
- running pig rich will destroy the pre-cats over time. Which is why when people talk about "resistor fixes" for o2 sensors I lose my shizzle. Yes the heaters only matter while the car warms up, but that's still a good 5 mins or so of the car possibly running very rich (remember it already runs rich at first cold start anyway)
- oil burning is due to Toyota's crap piston design and ring material. This was helped along in the 2006 editions. The 2003 pistons aren't really even that much better. But, admittedly, better. This is why post-2003 cars definitely can still suffer oil burning (and, half-unrelated, pre-cat failure)
- there is an EGR function that the 1zz uses. It uses vvti and the cam profile to induce valve overlap which "sucks" some exhaust back into the cylinder for re-combustion and keep exhaust temps down. But... Serious doubt as to whether this is powerful enough to suck pre-cat material back up.
- I have yet to hear anybody who has taken these blocks apart mention anything about oval bore. I believe Carolyn just pulled apart a 176k block and used a bore gauge and it was straight.
And there endeth mine rant.
If it's an unknown car with iffy history, I'd replace the manifold with a readily available aftermarket equivalent. Cheap enough.
Inversely, we have a car over 100k miles that we know for a fact was meticulously maintained and oil changed frequently. It still has pre-cats in. It runs sweeter than most mr2s I've driven/heard. Courtesy of Graham Read.
^^^^ Post of the day.
Some pics if my 130k manifold. Service history unknown, but the car is a wreck and this is the colour of the engine oil that came out of it...
20200825_154740.jpg
And the clutch fluid. Minging.
20200829_091851.jpg
Precats starting to look a bit flaky up top...
20200829_092047.jpg
20200829_092105.jpg
But fine down the bottom.
20200829_091940.jpg
20200829_092004.jpg
I'm not going to comment on the hows and whys, as I'm no 1ZZ expert, but I am struggling to figure out how they would break up bottom first.
Just for clarity; they don't disintegrate from the bottom first. They disintegrate from the bottom as well.
Those do look like they need to come out though
New manifold fitted already :)
So the one above is spare / FOC to anyone who wants it, perhaps to break the Precats out at leisure, then swap over.
As it was my, possibly badly-worded post that started this in the first place I should point out I wasn't suggesting that ALL failed precats fail at the bottom first but they can ALSO have a tendency to break up from the bottom due to vibration or knocks or whatever reason they suddenly decide they'd be happier in the main cat.
As previously discussed the general consensus is if they look good on the top they're probably even better on the bottom.
Should still smash them out at your earliest convenience though...
More great info/knowledge from this place. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: shnazzle on August 29, 2020, 09:46Quote from: Joesson on August 28, 2020, 23:03@shnazzle said
"I thought it was common knowledge by now".
On this occasion and for me this knowledge is not common. Not seen a mention of that on here.
As I mentioned my precats were perfect when removed so no personal experience only what I've read in 2011 and since.
So the theory now is that an inspection through the sensor ports will only indicate the ending of the break down of the precat? Not the start as my previous reading/ understanding.
I get it now that the material must eventually fall out from the bottom and envisage that the precat becomes saturated, the pressure of the exhaust pushing the oil into the precats. In this case the precat material acts like a sponge and the saturation is greatest at the bottom and fails upwards.
Certainly not read that anywhere, but having written it down I do get it. Thank you.
To be fair, I have a draft of a new Buyer's Guide sitting here that I've been working on bit by bit for ages. The reason for the redraft is mainly the stuff around "oval bore" and that kind of rubbish. There's still an unknown or two but we can say with some certainty that pre-cats = oval bore is a myth.
- pre-cats have been seen to break from what looks like vibration or a heavy knock (a hard split/fracture in the honeycomb and big chunks dropping out the bottom).
- pre-cat material definitely degrades quickly when hot oil is introduced to it. This is caused by oil burning, it does not cause the oil burning
- running pig rich will destroy the pre-cats over time. Which is why when people talk about "resistor fixes" for o2 sensors I lose my shizzle. Yes the heaters only matter while the car warms up, but that's still a good 5 mins or so of the car possibly running very rich (remember it already runs rich at first cold start anyway)
- oil burning is due to Toyota's crap piston design and ring material. This was helped along in the 2006 editions. The 2003 pistons aren't really even that much better. But, admittedly, better. This is why post-2003 cars definitely can still suffer oil burning (and, half-unrelated, pre-cat failure)
- there is an EGR function that the 1zz uses. It uses vvti and the cam profile to induce valve overlap which "sucks" some exhaust back into the cylinder for re-combustion and keep exhaust temps down. But... Serious doubt as to whether this is powerful enough to suck pre-cat material back up.
- I have yet to hear anybody who has taken these blocks apart mention anything about oval bore. I believe Carolyn just pulled apart a 176k block and used a bore gauge and it was straight.
And there endeth mine rant.
If it's an unknown car with iffy history, I'd replace the manifold with a readily available aftermarket equivalent. Cheap enough.
Inversely, we have a car over 100k miles that we know for a fact was meticulously maintained and oil changed frequently. It still has pre-cats in. It runs sweeter than most mr2s I've driven/heard. Courtesy of Graham Read.
I've been reading about pre-cats ever since I joined the forum after buying my car new in 2004. The car has now covered 67k miles and still has the precats.
I completely agree and hold with the comments made in the last paragraph. My car runs as well, if not better than it ever has, it does not burn a drop of oil (I've never had to personally remove the oil cap!), it has been serviced with oil change every 12 months without fail, either by Toyota or the experts below.
I have discussed precat removal with a number of knowledgable Roadster experts - Steve Nugent (D1 Customs), Matt Lee (Silverstone Performance) and Rogue Motorsport. Because of the history of the car, the advice from each was the same 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. My view from the hundreds of posts I've read and feedback on the subject, is that precats fail because the engine burns oil. Therefore, I'll continue to follow the advice I've been given and keep things as Toyota built them i.e. a standard engine which does not burn any oil and has a Toyota manifold complete with precats.
I think that these sentiments agree with Shnazzle's post 🤞😀.