Mini supercharger on 1zz

[shnazzle]

What about the water meth option mentioned above?
Not only will it reduce temperatures, it will also provide extra protection  against knock.
It could be knocked up relatively cheaply

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[lamcote]

See above. Added after your last question. Personally I would tend to only use water injection on top of normal intercooling if it proved to be a necessary requirement.

[shnazzle]

The atomisation is such that all water is burned. The metal doesn't have a chance to oxidise as the oxygen is used in combustion in ridiculously small amounts of time

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[lamcote]

Hmm, full atomisation even at the point in time you turn the engine off? Potentially leaving water lying in the engine, combustion chamber and cast iron cylinder liners all the time it is switched off? I think I mentioned earlier, I am notoriously risk averse!!

BUT this, along with everything else I write in this thread is nothing more than my opinion, it counts for no more than yours. I'm under no illusions, it's Carolyn's project, I'm just hoping to play a part in helping bring it to reality.

[shnazzle]

The atomisation is such that all water is burned. The metal doesn't have a chance to oxidise as the oxygen is used in combustion in ridiculously small amounts of time

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EDIT: depending of course on where it is injected  s:) s:)  Closer to the chamber the better and less chance of rust

[ChrisGB]

A few thoughts:

I would run the supercharger to produce good horsepower at near the stock cars peak output. To produce boost into a larger engine, it will need to be slightly overdriven.

Fueling wise, a rising rate FPR may save you messing about with injectors and leave mapping tweaks minimal.

 m http://www.turbosmartusa.com/technical- ... -fpr-work/ m

Ignition timing will need some degree of compensation.

Using the mini supercharger gives a very cheap blower, but the money saved could easily be eaten up by the cost of a subframe unless you have there diy skills, so as a one off, it's good in cost terms, but could work out more expensive as a kit. There are cheap Eaton blowers around that are easier to mount and have bigger horsepower and torque potential.

When working out power against boost, you needed to take into account the amount of that power used to drive the blower.

I'm liking the look of this project, but it does look to be a whole heap of variables. I would be trying to keep it as simple as possible. Good luck!

[lamcote]

Thanks Chris. I haven't ever got my head round the FPR thing. Does that work OK on the 1zz variable fuel pressure and non return fuel rail system? Also to make 255cc injectors flow like 310cc ones needs c.70psi, might that not blow the fuel rail seals etc?

The boost calcs do make an allowance for the different engine capacities.

Ignition timing is indeed a concern.

Which other superchargers are you thinking of?

The power increase percentage assumptions do implicitly account for the power used to drive the blower.

Keep the thoughts coming, the more help the better.

[Carolyn]

The SC can be protected with a heat -shield.  The Mini intercooler and outlet can't be used.  It will sit directly above the hottest part of the exhaust and can't be shielded. (It needs air flow).  It's more likely to act as a heater than a cooler. We will have to fabricate the output plate and pipe, which is ok, but it won't produce the same result as the standard Mini one.  That means we will only know actual boost when we put a boost gauge on a running system.  That may well mean a second pulley.

At some point, the addition of variables and ideas has to stop so that something can be built.  Once built, it has to be tested under load, so the subframe is a must.  David and I are going to make a jig for making the subframe as the suspension mounting points are angled and have to be pretty precise.  Once a jig is built, more subframes can be produced.  What are they likely to cost?  We will know when we've built one.

Now we need to settle on a 'stage one' plan of exactly what we're going to build first, or we will never proceed.  You guys know your stuff and the discussions have been productive.  Can we, now narrow it down to one set-up.  Then we can test and replace speculation with observed evidence.
I'm open to a different supercharger, especially if it gets us around the subframe issue.

ChrisGB: Thanks for your considered input, any particular SC you have in mind?

Last point,: You can think this thing to death. You can't possibly spot all the issues in advance and there will doubtless be a fairly big one that is entirely un-predicted.  It's the nature of such projects.  The main reason I want to keep costs to a minimum is the simple fact it might not work out.  If we can get a decent working result, then it can be refined.
 
Let's set a deadline of 30 days to arrive at the 'stage one' plan?  That gives time for reflection and it will, in the end, speed things up.

[lamcote]

Agreed, excellent plan.

Given your comment about getting "around the subframe issue" are you now open to consider my alternative mounting idea, or should I forget it? I'm happy to go with whatever you decide.

[Carolyn]

No, I'm not happy with that.  That was settled between us when you were here.  We can't keep going over old ground.

[lamcote]

OK, subframe topic closed. We need to decide on a final test spec.

My suggested "mechanical" (ie standard ECU) test spec, order of preference is:

1st. 120mm pulley with 330cc injectors
2nd. 120mm pulley with 310cc injectors
3rd. 96mm pulley with 330cc injectors

Which one do others prefer most?

Personally I would include an intercooler but not incorporate water injection.

Is there anything else to specify at this stage?

[lamcote]

Regarding the eManage Blue v Ultimate discussion.

If we finish up needing an ECU upgrade, it appears that the Blue can only control fuel maps, not ignition. Is this really correct? If so, Blue is no good to us. (Shnazzle's maps are safe!)

[shnazzle]

I believe Blue can do it with the extra harness. Which I believe I have incorporated in my harness because there are plugs there that I can see on the standard harness.
I'll double check this. But there is definitely an ignitionmap

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[shnazzle]

Left on that pic are the 8 ignition harness wires.
Confirmed this on another post on here with the wiring instructions.
 l viewtopic.php?p=637494&sid=eaf508dfb26806b5ca40025535fa4b82#p637494 l
So yes, we're in luck. My harness even comes with ignition wiring  s:) s:)  
Win.

On top of that, I noticed a Boost port in the back. Not sure how I missed this before but I suspect this is for a map sensor.

So... Sorted.

[lamcote]

Excellent news. Do you have a spec sheet for that thing? I can't find much real detail about either of them.

[shnazzle]

Excellent news. Do you have a spec sheet for that thing? I can't find much real detail about either of them.

Not really but this is from the manual:

12v system
Control factory injectors at 5RPM points (I think via the 5 dials at the front) with airflow meter or MAP signal inputs
VTEC control
Data logging and real time monitoring
Fine fuel adjustment with addition 16 RPM points
Control larger injectors and airflow meters
(with harness) control injector duty cycle and ignition timing
Ability to control 2 sub-injectors (thinking this would be great to control water injection if so desired)
trace fuel map in real time
Boost limiter cut


Just to add more happy news, I also have the injector control wiring in the harness. So, I've got the mother of all emanage blue harnesses! Injector, ignition and base. Only thing I could add is a MAP sensor. Happy days. Thank you robsonic

[tatieu]

Stock injectors are 260cc it seems to me

[lamcote]

Merci!

[lamcote]

Shnazzle, can you get some data logging done on your engine. Some data on injector pulse width, ignition timing, air flow and air temperature each graphed/tabled against throttle opening (load) and revs. How do the fuel trims show up as affecting the fueling?

Is that possible on your ECU?

[shnazzle]

I cannot because I can't get the damn cables to work! I've got two. I think it's my laptop that's the problem. I'm going to borrow an older laptop tonight and then I'll see if I can connect.
Not sure I can log pulse widths and the like mind

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[lamcote]

OK. Are there some base maps that are available for piggyback ECUs for this engine that we can get hold of and view the data in a spreadsheet? A supercharger (probably only turbo available) one and a naturally aspirated one to compare would be amazing.

[Carolyn]

I cannot because I can't get the damn cables to work! I've got two. I think it's my laptop that's the problem. I'm going to borrow an older laptop tonight and then I'll see if I can connect.
Not sure I can log pulse widths and the like mind

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A lot of this stuff only works on Windows XP.

[lamcote]

XP!!!!

[lamcote]

Could try running XP in VirtualBox?

[Carolyn]

XP!!!!

Really.  All my mechanic friends run diagnostics and flashing on XP