Almost an entire tank of oil in <600 miles

ash.carr · September 5, 2016, 09:21

As the title suggests.

I don't use the '2 as a daily driver - its purely a summer car and this is actually the first time I've "really" driven it since I got it a year ago. I changed the oil (and filter) about a month a go and it was absolutely full. Now its about 5mm above the L on the dipstick. No blue smoke but the cat would probably mask it. Doesn't seem to be any leaks either, so my guess is its being burnt. And we all know what that probably is, as I wasn't 100% sure about the precats when I changed the manifold; there were bits of ceramic material at the top end near the head.

Sigh. Just as well we've had such a sorry excuse for a summer as another 200 miles and it would have probably self destructed as I didn't think to check the oil more than once every 2 months or so.

So the plan is to get a decent measurement of how much its actually losing over what distance and go from there. Suffice to say its no way within the tolerances I've seen in other threads.
My main question is, assuming its being burnt at the piston rings, is it a case of keeping it topped up and all will be well, simply accepting the fact she's an oil burner. Or, is it a timebomb?

The bottom line is, if the car can stay alive by me topping it up, I can leave it as it is since it does about 600 miles a year and that's just one bottle of oil. If its going to implode, I need to either get rid or justify spending even more money on an engine rebuild. I'd have to be 100% sure everything else on the car is in perfect working order though since at the moment its a black hole for money. There's play in the steering and the UJ looks awful, so that's at least one thing that'll need doing.
Its MOT is due in a month, so if it fails that I think that's the last kick in the teeth I need for me to bail, which means I've wasted a lot of money on all new suspension which I can't take off to sell since I don't have the originals to put back on.

The in-laws just sent back a diesel '05 RAV4 that would rarely start and burnt almost as much oil as my '2 as well. Get your sshit shit sshit together Toyota.

The Other Stu · September 5, 2016, 10:02

Quote from: "ash.carr"Sigh. Just as well we've had such a sorry excuse for a summer as another 200 miles and it would have probably self destructed as I didn't think to check the oil more than once every 2 months or so.

I'm sorry about your engine s:(

s:( but "Sorry excuse for a summer"?

I've had my top down most days in July and August. Apparently it's one of the warmest summers we've ever had. I've spent 3 out of the last 5 weeks in Norfolk and it's been lovely. I had a week in my 'two (like you, mine is a summer car). On only 1 day did I not have the roof down all day.

Apparently we're going to get a late heatwave later this week too (29 on Thursday)

As British weather goes, this has definitely been one of the more memorable ones in my 44 years.

Carolyn · September 5, 2016, 11:55

Hi there,

Now, cheer up.
It ain't that bad. You undoubtedly have gummed up oil-control rings, which is really common in older cars. They only let the oil past when the engine is revving, and at such a rate that it all gets burned in the combustion process, which is why you have no blue smoke. The cat won't stop blue smoke, that's just not what it does, but it will not be damaged by the way your engine is burning the oil. AND it will not cause an emissions problem at MOT.

Nor is it likely to implode.

You've used about 1 Litre in 600 miles - high but not catastrophic. An engine can exist like that for years, and with the mileage you're doing, it's really not a big deal, so long as you keep an eye on it and keep her topped up.
The only 'fix' is to do a light engine rebuild (clean pistons, new rings, hone bores and re-seal valve stems), but you don't have to.

Get the UJ done -( another common problem) and enjoy for the next few years. Especially as the suspension has already been done.

I have to agree with The Other Stu... it's been a brilliant summer round here. Top down just about every day.

AndyM · September 5, 2016, 11:56

Sorry to hear about the car, it does sound like a fairly typical "oil burner" scenario.

A couple of things...

1. If you keep the oil topped up then in theory the engine will keep running (albeit burning the oil) as it's running them dry that usually kills them (at the big end I believe). Providing you keep on top of it you can probably manage your low mileage usage that way. The danger is though that the burning is enough to drop the level too low even over small spirited drives so I would definitely keep a close track on usage over the next few miles and see where you are at and make the judgement call then.

2. You mentioned about changing the manifold and seeing "bits of ceramic material". In a heathy stock manifold you should see two clean and intact matrixes of catalytic material through the O2 sensor holes and from the downpipe end of the manifold. If you're seeing material at the top of the 4 ports near the head then you almost certainly have had precept failure which would explain the issue. As you've changed the manifold I'm assuming it's decat now?

3. Linked to the above, if you have ceramic material at the top end then there is a danger the precats could have collapsed which can also lead to chunks falling into the main cat and causing issues. Have you had any rough running, etc...?

Andy

snowdogwhite · September 5, 2016, 22:34

I bought my car in Jan this year soon found out it to be an oil burner since then i have been very strict every full tank of fuel check oil and always keep it topped up.
When i started it at work tonight i got a big cloud of blue smoke instantly stopped engine and checked oil it was half way between full and empty with only 12 mile to get home i went for it needless to say i got home but car aint gona move again on that engine.
I cant believe how fast this engine died i knew it was an oil burner and drove it with great care keeping revs down oil topped up even now oil is above min level no blue smoke till today.

carolineasb · September 6, 2016, 00:57

I've got to say I don't know why people have such a downer on these cars and Toyota!

The youngest of these cars is 10 years old and I don't know any other make of car that would be perfect at that age, in fact, most will be a heck of a lot worse!

We've been a Toyota family for 22 years since my hubby is a mechanic and would rather not have a lot of work to do on his own cars!

1979scotte · September 6, 2016, 07:21

It easy for a car to be reliable when you have a mechanic in the family that looks after it properly.
Love my Mr2 but i think oil control rings dodgey rear calipers and corroded rear subframes are a bit
much in one car.
Have a 98 plate polo the brakes work and it doesnt rot. Uses some oil.
Not a Toyota fan tbh.
Could only see myself in a mr2 supra or gt86. My mums Aygo is very tinny and has a terrible gearbox.
Mercs and fords are the most reliable cars i have owned.

Carolyn · September 6, 2016, 08:34

I have to agree that it's a high maintenance little car. I would not be able to own one if I couldn't do all my own work and didn't have the knowledge-base to keep on top of it.
However... the back brakes are common to many cars of the era (my 1.6i Civic had the same set-up), so I don't feel that's uniquely an MR2 problem.
It's a lot of performance for the money, but not for everyone, I'm afraid.
Having said all that, this is the MR2 Roadster Owners' Club and not the Toyota Complaints Department. Lot's of assistance, good info and friendly expert help is available here. If one has a problem, help is at hand. When help is offered, a polite 'thank you' is a good idea.
If you just want to moan... may I refer you to the Toyota Corporation? (Not aimed at you Scotte!)

ash.carr · September 6, 2016, 09:29

Good grief, clearly I need to move locations then. It's been utterly miserable here which is a shame as I wanted to spend most of it in the '2 and send the missus on shopping runs s:D

s:D
It rained almost every day in June, and we've had about 2 weeks worth of nice weather since then. I bought a house in the wrong town s;)

s;)

Quote from: "Carolyn"Hi there,
Nor is it likely to implode.

You've used about 1 Litre in 600 miles - high but not catastrophic. An engine can exist like that for years, and with the mileage you're doing, it's really not a big deal, so long as you keep an eye on it and keep her topped up.
The only 'fix' is to do a light engine rebuild (clean pistons, new rings, hone bores and re-seal valve stems), but you don't have to.

Awesome, that's exactly what I was hoping to hear. I'm content to keep it topped up as long as it isn't going to conk out on me halfway on a pleasure drive. One bottle of oil a year is hardly a significant expense.
I'll ensure to keep close tabs on it. Based on what it's done over the past 3 weeks ish, a weekly check is more than enough as the most distance I cover in one hit is way below 100 miles. I also don't tend to go too nuts with the loud pedal as I prefer a nice cruise rather than a sideways corner. I'll give it a boot now and then don't get me wrong, but its hardly my driving style.

I'm looking around about the engine rebuild. I did a fair amount of searching before posting this thread re oil use and rebuilds, and there's a fella on here that had one one over in Stoke which isn't unreasonably far away. Whether I take them up on it depends what they charge I guess. I'll wait for the MOT to see what they say before I make any decisions about the work I'm willing to pay for. Certainly won't be getting rid if I'm able to keep it alive with what is essentially an IV drip, I absolutely adore the car despite its occasional betrayal. "I LOVE YOU. LOVE ME TOO" kind of thing.

Time to source a decent UJ then me thinks. Mine looks a bit beyond refurb in my opinion.

Quote from: "AndyM"2. You mentioned about changing the manifold and seeing "bits of ceramic material". In a heathy stock manifold you should see two clean and intact matrixes of catalytic material through the O2 sensor holes and from the downpipe end of the manifold. If you're seeing material at the top of the 4 ports near the head then you almost certainly have had precept failure which would explain the issue. As you've changed the manifold I'm assuming it's decat now?

3. Linked to the above, if you have ceramic material at the top end then there is a danger the precats could have collapsed which can also lead to chunks falling into the main cat and causing issues. Have you had any rough running, etc...?

Andy

Yup its a stainless decat manifold. The amount of ceramic material I noticed in the OEM manifold was a few "crumbs" if you like but definitely at the "please not that end". I had a real good look at the precat structure and they seemed "ok" with no noticeable cracks etc, albeit a slightly uneven surface. The material I saw was ominous to say the least, especially as it was the exact same colour as the precats. I'm no mechanic - I'm learning the basics at best - but I'd hedge my bets that its certainly that which has caused this. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous owner got rid for the oil reason as I got the car from a garage in Ilkeston. At least no additional damage can be done at this stage.
The good news is I wouldn't say it runs rough, rather smooth actually; sounds good, starts easily, doesn't die, idles quietly and cleanly even when cold, revs drop nicely when warm. There's a subtle dead spot between 3 and 4k rpm, but I can't recall whether that's new or not. It may have always been there and I never noticed, but now I'm listening for problems I might be more likely to notice these subtleties.

Thanks for the input as ever all, very helpful. Hopefully one day I'll be able to help someone rather than constantly ask other people for their opinions and advice. If you need a computer sorting or a website making, I'm your man hahaha.

Carolyn · September 6, 2016, 09:59

Glad we could be of service. Yup - you can hear every little noise can't you? Hard not to listen.
It doesn't sound like pre-cat damage (I think you caught it just in time), just gummed-up rings. A good thing. You probably haven't damaged the bores, making a re-build more do-able.
May I suggest that you wrap your manifold (if you haven't already done it)? Helps a little with performance and a lot with keeping the engine bay cool.

ptennisnet · September 6, 2016, 10:11

I was using >3L a week at one point and did so for months with no impact to my engine I also passed an MOT. There is a risk of failing if you get blue smoke on start-up but the emissions test itself seems OK. I was buying cheapy synthetic from carparts4less for about £12 / 5L. No point in expensive oil when it's barely touching the sides.

MR TWO · September 6, 2016, 17:08

Quote from: "1979scotte"Love my Mr2 but i think oil control rings dodgey rear calipers and corroded rear subframes are a bit
much in one car.

Totally agree. The engine failure and rear subframe problem is appalling.

However there are no other inexpensive, mid engine, rwd, two seater convertibles available which is probably the reason most of us own a Mr2 mk3. The only comparable cars are Lotus Elise or Porsche Boxster imo.

So no moaning from me, I have simply changed out the parts I don't like, and in another year or two I might even have it finished...

1979scotte · September 6, 2016, 19:41

Quote from: "Carolyn"I have to agree that it's a high maintenance little car. I would not be able to own one if I couldn't do all my own work and didn't have the knowledge-base to keep on top of it.
However... the back brakes are common to many cars of the era (my 1.6i Civic had the same set-up), so I don't feel that's uniquely an MR2 problem.
It's a lot of performance for the money, but not for everyone, I'm afraid.
Having said all that, this is the MR2 Roadster Owners' Club and not the Toyota Complaints Department. Lot's of assistance, good info and friendly expert help is available here. If one has a problem, help is at hand. When help is offered, a polite 'thank you' is a good idea.
If you just want to moan... may I refer you to the Toyota Corporation? (Not aimed at you Scotte!)

Perhaps we should have a moaning section. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I could up my post count even further. s:scared: :scared: s:scared:

I have NEVER owned a car with a worse handbrake. I cant believe there is another car a similar vintage that could be worse.

I love it to bits but this is a British forum and we are a moany people.
Why else would the kangaroo kissers have christend us the whingeing poms?
Right MODS where is the moan thread?

Carolyn · September 6, 2016, 20:26

Go on then... Moan. You've earned the right..

1979scotte · September 6, 2016, 21:33

s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

trooper99 · September 6, 2016, 21:58

Is there an engine number cut off for these oil burner motors? I've recently bought a 2004 (made 11/2003) 6 speed, and its running perfectly, doesn't smoke at all, ever, hot or cold, and after about 600 miles has not used a drop of oil s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I've given it a damned good thrashing a few times already, on my favourite roads, such as the Snake, Woodhead and Cat n Fiddle , not had a single problem with smoke or overheating yet....admitted its early days, just how bad is oil use on a bad motor? Loving the car, almost as good fun as my Kawasaki 1000, and I don't have to wear armour to drive it! s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:

Bernie · September 6, 2016, 22:07

Final versions 2005/6 had revised pistons, but it's not inevitable a properly maintained car should stand up better
Mine is 2004 regularly serviced and does not use a drop of oil between services
A big issue was where they were 2nd cars and not used too often owners ignored 10,000 miles OR 1 year intervals and left 2 years or more between services

1979scotte · September 6, 2016, 22:10

Change oil once a year minimum and you wont have a problem.
I change mine twice a year except when the oil feed for the turbo decides to leak.
Ended up puting so much oil in it changed itself.

carolineasb · September 8, 2016, 00:26

Still got to totally disagree on your reliability opinions!

My husband has seen a lot more of each marque than each of you on here could own (barring the other mechanics on here) and sorry but Toyotas are at the top of the reliability stakes! He doesn't want to be doing work at home and that's why he always has one!

You wouldn't believe some of the much more expensive cars that have common total engine failures so we are lucky, if things go wrong it doesn't cost thousands and thousands! I also reiterate that the youngest are 10 years old and I just don't believe for a minute that 10 year old Fords and Mercs are any more reliable than Toyotas! You may well have been very lucky Scotte!

The Other Stu · September 8, 2016, 09:14

Could be worse. You could own the BMW with the dreaded timing chain fault.
I know a fella who had a 2009 one. Top of the range, very expensive car. Had done just over 100k. BMW refuse to budge - they will only even talk about it if you've done less than 100k.

Ardent · September 8, 2016, 11:36

I nearly bought one as a replacement for my mkiv golf. Dodged that one.
Saying that, as I operate on the bangornomics end of the scale. I would have had an early one. Which does not have the same issue.
(at least as I understand things)

jonbill · September 8, 2016, 12:16

Quote from: "The Other Stu"Could be worse. You could own the BMW with the dreaded timing chain fault.
I know a fella who had a 2009 one. Top of the range, very expensive car. Had done just over 100k. BMW refuse to budge - they will only even talk about it if you've done less than 100k.

N47 engine can't be top of the range, it's only got 4 cylinders!

jeffsimply · September 8, 2016, 14:43

Don't worry about it mate.

Mine is very funny too, sometimes it uses a bit of oil and other months it doesn't seem to use a drop. Just keep a tub of oil in the front boot and check it every other week.

One thing to note, are you sure it's being burnt and not leaking?

1979scotte · September 8, 2016, 14:55

The above is a good point.

normanh · September 8, 2016, 18:33

In the 11 odd years of 2 ownership I have used far more coolant due to a pinhole rad leak that held out till July this year when it finally went to loosing 1/2 litre in 200 miles. In respect of oil I think I am just nearing the end of my 2nd litre of top up oil in 85K miles - I have the car serviced just once per year, the engine was changed at 22K as a smoker/oil burner and I have had the car since 35K. All I can say is for me the engine appears very good - refitted with a revised spec engine under warranty I was told by the dealer.

Norman