Ponderings on softer

[SV-3]

If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.

Well, why turn it into a plank if that only sharpens the edge?

My point was and is that OEM is a very good compromise and that compromise inherently means you can go either way depending on your priorities yet there is only lower/harder...

So, if OEM is a Pudding, then any variation may be considered to be a Wet Nelly (look it up) with Custard, Maltesers and Sprinkles et al - based on what?

[Petrus]

If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.

Well, why turn it into a plank if that only sharpens the edge?

My point was and is that OEM is a very good compromise and that compromise inherently means you can go either way depending on your priorities yet there is only lower/harder...

So, if OEM is a Pudding, then any variation may be considered to be a Wet Nelly (look it up) with Custard, Maltesers and Sprinkles et al - based on what?

It´s all relative. For mé the OEM suspension is sporting firm and soft enough for real world B-roads. Any harder/lower and it would be more limited in my world, not better. Call it any food you like.

My point; why is harder/lower the only offering whereas going the other way has benefits to offer too. See the video per example and that is not even mentioning ground clearance.

Mán how nice this car would be on gravel caminos when 50 mm or so higher on the legs, front to rear flush full skid plates and lsd. OEM rims, narrower/higher section gravel rubber, WOW!!
I already have two cars set up for combined B-roads and camino fun, otherwise I´d go for it.

[Petrus]

The MR Spyder has a, deliberate, rear weight bias. That dictates a softer front in everything stock.
When tuning this remains, include less negative camber up front.
That however says nothing about tuning softer than OEM.

The Spirit videos give rather hárd for all even in Touge trim. That is very specific rácing though. Not neccessarily an example to follow for real world open B-roads.

The most interesting Í found the stock brakes!!!

[steveash]

Mán how nice this car would be on gravel caminos when 50 mm or so higher on the legs, front to rear flush full skid plates and lsd. OEM rims, narrower/higher section gravel rubber, WOW!!
I already have two cars set up for combined B-roads and camino fun, otherwise I´d go for it.

There was a guy I'm sure, that had turned an MR2 into a sort of rally car. Google is giving me anything but a space-framed MR2 dune buggy!

[Petrus]

Mán how nice this car would be on gravel caminos when 50 mm or so higher on the legs, front to rear flush full skid plates and lsd. OEM rims, narrower/higher section gravel rubber, WOW!!

https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/rally-mr-s.130545/

Thanks for the link.
Read that some time ago and wondered why the guy did not stárt with some basic mods, but then I have done my share of stupid thing is the past as well.

The ´caminos´ I am talking about are thoúsands of kilometers of hard pack local roads connecting the rural bits of Spain. Is is áwesome when you can travel them. Simply a different world where you only encounter the local locals. You don´t need a 4x4 or so. Just  more wheel travel, softer, progressive springs, ´snow´ rubber and belly protction. The latter needs not be all thát rugged as you are not going rock bashing, not going óff road, just unmetalled road.
I´d seriously LÓVE it with the MR Spyder.

[Petrus]

Hopefully you can see the kind of "road" it is. The incline where the pavement stopped and rock began was very steep, don't think I could've climbed it with a RWD car, at least not without difficulty.

Just like we have. Hugely fun with rwd; just don´t lose momentum or you´l need to go back till the next bend; the connecting bits between hairpins tend to be less steep.
It is when you learn about kinetic energy traction; the weight of the gravel spun backwards ´pushing´ the car forwards.
Going up the slopes it is a finer balance; spinning enough to gain push, not so much you loose too much traction.

Btw., when you're already here, Petrus, with cars that have roof scoops, like rally cars, is it possible to close the roof scoop to cut off the incoming air? If yes, where does that forced air then go in order to not tear the scoop off?

There are several functions for air scoops. The older cars used to have small flaps in the roof opening forward of rearward and could simply be closed. Like LandRovers and older R4, 2CVs per example.
Other roof scoops direct air over the mid or rear engine. When running under cold condition simplest is taping the aperture as needed.
More modern rallye cars have incredibly efficient filtered ventilation systems fed from the from or bonnet. Today´s prototypes running in the Dakar go 500 kms through dust at an average of 125 km/h and arrive at the fnish with the interior kept dust free. You have to see to believe.
So, whichever gen. your potential issue simply does not come into play.

[Petrus]

this is as bad as I let it get for the De Kikker.

This my drive:



and next is what I woúld do:





remeber spaghetti westerns with Ennio Morecone music; shot in  the Tavernas desert in Almeria?
We crossed it northeast - southwest and .... it rained!!





with the óther car same formula illustrated by



invented a vat of extra nothing; a vacuum buffer for  shifting under full throttle on looooong bumpy ascends



the route, sort of; 2500 kms of hardpack and worse




have action photos sómewhere; on this there´s always nude gf´s in the shot of the whole car, sorry.

[BahnStormer]

Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer

That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.

That characteristic is OEM, but being able to feel it is critical to being able to control it when you're on the edge... and I think you can get a better feel with well setup (non-OEM) geometry and slightly stiffer suspension... that said, I found the 4kg/6kg BC Racing coilovers a bit rattly with AD08R's, but the Tein springs + Koni shocks are a lot more forgiving....

[Petrus]

Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer

That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.

That characteristic is OEM, but being able to feel it is critical to being able to control it when you're on the edge... and I think you can get a better feel with well setup (non-OEM) geometry and slightly stiffer suspension... that said, I found the 4kg/6kg BC Racing coilovers a bit rattly with AD08R's, but the Tein springs + Koni shocks are a lot more forgiving....

I was lóath to go lower or stiffer as that limits functionality for me and decided to improve feel by adding some bracing and do a p.a.s. delete.

[james_ly]

That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.

Please forgive my ignorance, but pre-load how?

Getting the weight over the front on turn in. E.g. lifting or braking. Makes a big difference and the only way to drive it IMO. Best learned on a track though!

[Petrus]

As answered.
A third is shifting weight by gently flicking the wrong way, out then in, the supersoft version of the scandinavian flick without the handbrake. On series of corners or p.e, some roundabouts you can ´do´ it in the flow by your position on the width of the road/track.

As noted NOT someting to try on the public road.

Be aware that, temporarily, shifting the balance is not the same as actually moving weight. Going uphill versus downhill is ... different.
Ditto the camber of the road which can be negative, positive or a trichy crown ready to upset your intentions between two corners.

Another word of caution; we are talking lower speed turn in.
In general our MR likes it best when you have all done when peeling of into a corner.

[BahnStormer]

Please forgive my ignorance, but pre-load how?

As James has said - best learned / practised on a track / empty airfield.... but the car has fundamentally different levels of front-end grip if you:
a) go through a corner at a flat 40mph
VERSUS
b) decelerate from 60mph to 40mph (in a straight line) and THEN tuck the nose into the same corner at the same speed...

The difference is that if you've timed this right, then some of the car's weight has just been transferred forward as you've decelerated... worth noting that this gives you more front end grip and likely more speed and control through the apex, but more weight over the front means less on the rear and will result in more risk of throttle oversteer on the exit; if you're careful on the throttle and gradually ease the power in as the weight transfers back to the rear, this is utterly awesome and will make you look and feel like a hero, but only if managed carefully... time it right and the effect will make your heart sing... get it wrong and you will probably leave the corner backwards...

Essentially you're trying to create the front-end grip effects of trail-braking... Please note that high speed trail-braking is best avoided in a short wheelbase, rear weight biased car like ours unless you have either a lot of experience or a lot of run-off before the tyre wall...

[1979scotte]

I've experienced high speed trail breaking in my old turbo.
It's was quite exciting.
I was utterly amazed I didn't die.
What amazing feats that the well trained can perform.
Was an instructor on our car limits day.

[Petrus]

Please forgive my ignorance, but pre-load how?

As James has said - best learned / practised on a track / empty airfield.... but the car has fundamentally different levels of front-end grip if you:
a) go through a corner at a flat 40mph
VERSUS
b) decelerate from 60mph to 40mph (in a straight line) and THEN tuck the nose into the same corner at the same speed...

The difference is that if you've timed this right, then some of the car's weight has just been transferred forward as you've decelerated... worth noting that this gives you more front end grip and likely more speed and control through the apex, but more weight over the front means less on the rear and will result in more risk of throttle oversteer on the exit; if you're careful on the throttle and gradually ease the power in as the weight transfers back to the rear, this is utterly awesome and will make you look and feel like a hero, but only if managed carefully... time it right and the effect will make your heart sing... get it wrong and you will probably leave the corner backwards...

Essentially you're trying to create the front-end grip effects of trail-braking... Please note that high speed trail-braking is best avoided in a short wheelbase, rear weight biased car like ours unless you have either a lot of experience or a lot of run-off before the tyre wall...

Thanks for the explanetory perspective and the (highlighted) caveat. The crux being effect of trail braking but nót trail braking.


A relatively safe way to get to grips with the principle is to reverse it.
Find a wide roundabout on a deserted industrial estate. Position the car on the outside and from a standstill accellerate round. This means you will go straight and then need to turn reatively brisquely under accelaration. Understeer on turn in practically guaranteed.

[BahnStormer]

I've experienced high speed trail breaking in my old turbo.
It's was quite exciting.
I was utterly amazed I didn't die.
What amazing feats that the well trained can perform.
Was an instructor on our car limits day.

Yep - that's what those limits days are for, definitely keen for the next one: when it comes to road driving, I aim to finish each journey exhilarated in ways other than "amazed I didn't die"....

[1979scotte]

when it comes to road driving, I aim to finish each journey exhilarated in ways other than "amazed I didn't die"....

Best not let me drive you anywhere then 😂

[JB21]

You can learn how to transfer weight on the road very easily. Just learn how to trail brake. Everyone will do it in some way shape or form on the road without even noticing it. Once you have an understanding of trail braking you can really exploit grip that wouldn't be there otherwise versus just braking in a straight line and turning in where the car is neutral.

Even if you don't have the fastest car out on track and even on the road if that's what you're into you can really make time up on much faster cars (not faster drivers) honing your trail braking technique. I can pretty much out brake most cars on track using it given how light and agile the MR2 is and its 100% where I make up most of my time on track over faster cars. You can brake much later as you can brake all the way to the apex giving you more front end grip, less understeer also rotating the car where you want it. More inexperienced drivers brake in a straight line, lift off, turn in towards the apex and then only accelerate on or after the apex. Think how much time is lost with the car being neutral (no braking, no accelerating) not to mention they wont have the additional front end grip on entry or benefit of being able to rotate the car into the apex to give you a better line on exit to get on the power earlier.

This Driver61 article by Scott Mansell is very intuitive.

https://driver61.com/uni/trail-braking/

[Petrus]

Thanks for the explanation of both trail braking and the differences between traack and open road; you put the finger on the crux of this thread; that track requirements are not the same as those for the public road.
On the public road you strive to drive with ample grip reserve and need more compliance.

That said, to be able to drive like that it helps to know where the limits are and that you have several tools in your tool boy of driving skills.