Gears suddenly in the wrong order, gearstick moving freely?

[bobbe]

Hello,

I don't really know how to describe this problem other than by saying that the gears are suddenly in the wrong order.

I have a 2002 five speed manual. It was fine until I noticed switching one gear seemed to go in a strange direction (I think it was switching third to fourth went diagonally). Then a few minutes later I realised that none of the gears are where they're supposed to be.

I seem now to have six (!) forward gears, none of which seem to be first gear, and no reverse. The forward gears I do have seem to be in a random order, and I'm not really sure which is which (though presumably a couple of gears are being selected in multiple gearstick positions). I'm not sure any of them are second gear. The gear stick also moves freely side to side even when the car is in gear with the clutch not depressed.

That said, the car does go into gear smoothly without any sticking or resistance, it doesn't make any noises, and it runs along fine without any other noticeable problems. So I don't think there is any issue with the gearbox itself (fingers crossed!)

I'm assuming this is a gear linkage problem? I'm preparing for a fun afternoon tomorrow of taking off the centre console and poking around to see if I can figure out what's gone wrong. Has anyone encountered anything like this before?

Thanks!

[Carolyn]

That sounds distinctly like a failing gear cable. Bit of a bugger of a job, as the fuel tank has to come out.

The failure is likely to be at the gearbox end.  If you remove the rubber intake tube, you can see the cable ends. I suspect one has worn to the point that it's fayed and lost it's rigidity.

Keep us posted as to what you find.

If you do have to drop the tank, you might as well give the old girl a new pair of brake cables as well (unless they've been replaced already.

[bobbe]

Thanks Carolyn! That sounds like an expensive enough job.

I do like to tinker but getting the fuel tank out is a bit beyond me in both skills and equipment. I'll have a poke about under the console and see how I get on, but it may be off to my local mechanic with this one...

[Dev]

I have successfully run both one brake cable and shift cable though the car by fishing it to the other end.
 You will only lose the support that is above the gas tank. As long as the bracket before and after are tied down it should work without any issue.
 First you need to cut though the bad cable so you can get it to pass by pulling it though the other end.
  You will need to undo the two most rear bolts that hold the gas tank to let it drop down in an angle and then you can feed the cable though. 
  It was very easy work and when you finally have to drop the tank you can address the middle bracket at that time.  I have been like this for well over 14 years and others have done so also without any issues. 

[Joesson]

@Dev

While I currently have no issues with the handbrake/ cables I have been aware of the "necessity" to drop the fuel tank to replace the the cables because of the concealed intermediate fixing. I did wonder if it would be OK to just ignore the middle fixing and leave the cables free at that point. That you have done this, without issue, for " well over 14 years", is Very encouraging.

[Beachbum957]

We have been running without that hidden center support for years.  No issues and we were able to get the cable through without dropping the tank at all.  Of course, the cable had failed with a full tank of fuel!

[Dev]

@Dev

While I currently have no issues with the handbrake/ cables I have been aware of the "necessity" to drop the fuel tank to replace the the cables because of the concealed intermediate fixing. I did wonder if it would be OK to just ignore the middle fixing and leave the cables free at that point. That you have done this, without issue, for " well over 14 years", is Very encouraging.

 In 2005 I documented the process with pictures but it's now lost. During that time many others followed what I did and there was no reported issues doing it this way. A member described how hard it was doing it the right way with dropping the tank with jacks stands. Dropping the tank is not the only hard part it's supposedly reaching with your fingers to get the bracket undone because it's extremely tight reaching from laying on the ground. Therefore it's a lot easier with a lift.

When I found out how expensive the labor rates were I was motivated to take the short cut.

[Joesson]

@Dev

While I currently have no issues with the handbrake/ cables I have been aware of the "necessity" to drop the fuel tank to replace the the cables because of the concealed intermediate fixing. I did wonder if it would be OK to just ignore the middle fixing and leave the cables free at that point. That you have done this, without issue, for " well over 14 years", is Very encouraging.

 In 2005 I documented the process with pictures but it's now lost. During that time many others followed what I did and there was no reported issues doing it this way. A member described how hard it was doing it the right way with dropping the tank with jacks stands. Dropping the tank is not the only hard part it's supposedly reaching with your fingers to get the bracket undone because it's extremely tight reaching from laying on the ground. Therefore it's a lot easier with a lift.

When I found out how expensive the labor rates were I was motivated to take the short cut.

Be they $, £ or € they are great motivators!

[Dev]

@Dev

While I currently have no issues with the handbrake/ cables I have been aware of the "necessity" to drop the fuel tank to replace the the cables because of the concealed intermediate fixing. I did wonder if it would be OK to just ignore the middle fixing and leave the cables free at that point. That you have done this, without issue, for " well over 14 years", is Very encouraging.

 In 2005 I documented the process with pictures but it's now lost. During that time many others followed what I did and there was no reported issues doing it this way. A member described how hard it was doing it the right way with dropping the tank with jacks stands. Dropping the tank is not the only hard part it's supposedly reaching with your fingers to get the bracket undone because it's extremely tight reaching from laying on the ground. Therefore it's a lot easier with a lift.

When I found out how expensive the labor rates were I was motivated to take the short cut.

Be they $, £ or € they are great motivators!

Absolutely. Logically speaking what is the worst case scenario. Dropping the tank and getting to that third bracket.
 
 I was watching the Car Wizard last month and he had a short cut for replacing some kind of module that is under the dash of one of these newer Land Rovers. The dealer has to remove the entire dash with a lot of hours that is billed to the customer and it takes up a techs time when other cars need servicing.  Since the Wizard found a way to do it without removing the dash but still very hard to do the dealership brings him that kind of work since its half the labor hours. All three parties being the customer, dealer and the Car Wizard were very happy with the outcome and the cost. Not all things have to be by the book.







 

[Joesson]

@Dev

In your earlier post,Dev,you mention cutting one end off the cable to allow it to be pulled through, the middle bracket I guess.
Do you then thread the replacement cable through the available space, ignoring the bracket, or is it necessary to fix a length of cord to the old cable, when pulling it through, to provide something to pull the new cable with?

[Dev]

@Dev

In your earlier post,Dev,you mention cutting one end off the cable to allow it to be pulled through, the middle bracket I guess.
Do you then thread the replacement cable through the available space, ignoring the bracket, or is it necessary to fix a length of cord to the old cable, when pulling it through, to provide something to pull the new cable with?

There are details that I left out which I will explain.

 To pull the cables though I use what is known is fishing wire which is used for in wall installation of wires. It is a stiff flexible wire that you can push though from the cabin and poke around until you find the opening on the bottom of the tank. You should undo the two most rear bolts that hold the tank but not remove them so there is enough gap so its easy to find the fishing wire. Once the wire comes out I will tie a small wire, something like 14 gauge speaker wire to the fishing wire and pull it back into the cabin. I will tie the speaker wire to the cable and then pull the speaker wire from underneath unit the cable passes under the car.

Specific for the parking brake cable.

 The brake cable middle bracket is fixed to the cable which rests above the tank. What you have to do is cut as much as possible from both ends of the old wire. Then you pass the remaining though the hole so its now hidden. Basically you are leaving a small remnant behind. If you ever lower the tank you can remove the remnant at that time but for now no big deal.
 Another thing to note when passing the cable there is a rubber grommet kind of sheath where the cable enters the cabin. You will need to make a small cut in the sheath to allow the cable to pass.  After the work is completed you can seal up the slice with some silicone sealer. The new cable comes with a new grommet which you will not use and have to remove because it is next to impossible to install the grommet unless you drop the tank. No big deal. Bolt everything up and you should be good.

 Specific for the shift cable. 

  The shifter cable is more or less like the brake cable but the middle bracket is not fixed. The cable can slide though. When you cut the cable you can pull it out from underneath the car. No remnants except for the middle bracket that is attached above the tank. Do the same to fish the cable as you would the brake cable. Actually if I remember I was able to pass the shifter cable without using the fishing wire method by just pushing the cable though with a few attempts.

 There are some other little things I may have forgot but it was relatively easy. If you are mechanically inclined you will know what to do if you read my synopsis and can actually see what you are dealing with.   

 I hope that helps someone.

[Dev]

Since some have an interest in what I did I decided to go though my picture archives to find the write up pictures from the brake cable instalation. Unfortunately internet hosting was primitive in 2005 so it was probably hosted by my ISP and when I changed ISPs it was lost. However I found a few pictures I have taken from the shifter installation.  

You all have to bear with me as it was so long ago and I am trying to recall what exactly I was trying to document.

 You cannot view this attachment.

  First picture was cutting the cable so it can pass though the bracket. I used a cut off tool as it is very tough.

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 Here is a better view in relation to the cabin

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 Here is where the cable enters the cabin. If you poke your fingers in the hole you can actually feel the middle bracket attachment but unfortunately it is next to impossible to get a socket on the bolt.


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 I believe this might be the new shifter cable and I am showing you what the middle bracket attachment looks like.

 One last tip that comes to recollection. I had a shifter cable issue 50 miles after I installed a new clutch.
 On a discussion of how these shifter cables fail Little Rocket who has pioneered and performed more than 50 2ZZ swaps mentioned that the shifter cable fails if it is old and not supported after you remove the transmission places stress hanging down.This probably damages them internally so make sure you tie the cable when doing any transmission work.

[bobbe]

So I had a look around today and it's definitely a broken gear cable.

Here you can see I've been able to swing the gearbox end of the cable around and pull the gaiter back to expose the broken bit:

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Not sure if it has frayed somewhere and then given up or it's just sheared at that point, but either way it's definitely done.

Even with the very helpful information above from Dev (thanks!) I'm probably going to sent it to a garage for this one. It was due a service and MOT prep in a few weeks anyway so may as well get it all done in one go. Though I'm not 100% convinced that I couldn't make a decent attempt at it myself.

Where is best to source a replacement cable? The usual car parts sites are coming up blank, so the best bet so far is looking like ebay or a breaker

[Carolyn]

I got a pair from Dick Sloan (in our Marketplace , specialist breakers and parts suppliers) He will only send stuff that is in good condition.

Link: https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?board=123.0

As it will be up on a lift I would still have them drop the tank and do all the cables (unless the handbrake cables have been done). 

The cable was probably damaged during a clutch change. (Or engine being taken out and replaced.)

You could probably get brand new ones from Toyota, but you probably won't like the price.

[bobbe]

Thanks for the Dick Sloan recommendation! I'll get in touch with him

The clutch was changed over the summer so perhaps that's when the damage happened.

The service history says the handbrake cables were replaced in October 2017, so they should hopefully be fine

Thanks!

[Beachbum957]

Dev's method works fine and the original article can be found HERE

One possible cause of a shift cable problem after a clutch or transmission change it is possible to get a cable caught between the transmission and the engine when reinstalling the transmission and pinch it.  A very good reason to tie the cables up out of the way.

Don't ask how I know

[Carolyn]

Dev's method works fine and the original article can be found HERE

One possible cause of a shift cable problem after a clutch or transmission change it is possible to get a cable caught between the transmission and the engine when reinstalling the transmission and pinch it.  A very good reason to tie the cables up out of the way.

Don't ask how I know

Iy looks like we both have the same T shirt.

[bobbe]

Cables from Dick Sloan arrived during the week so I tried to have a go at this using Dev's method this morning.

The first problem is that I can't get the old cable cut

The second problem is that I can't get the clip out of the bracket that holds the cable into the rear of the shifter assembly

The third problem is that there is a rubber grommet in the gap where the cables pass out of the rear of the cabin, which doesn't seem to exist in the photos that come with Dev's instructions. The existing cables both pass through it. I can't see at all how the replacement cable would fit through with the fixings and whatnot on the end

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with any of these three issues? I'd like to deal with this myself if possible, but I'm increasingly feeling like I'll just take it to a garage show them Dev's method and let them have a go at it

[Dev]

The cable is tough to cut. I used a cut off tool.
 
The bracket on the transmission requires a technique to release. If the bracket clip is old it might be frozen and cant release so you need to destroy the clips to remove the cable and buy a new locking clip form the dealer.

 There is a grommet that is not pictured. I would have to see it again to know how I passed the new cable through but I did not document it probably because it was easy enough.

 You have to keep in mind that what I documented is a brief synopsis for a DIY person for someone experienced enough to work on cars that can get through the rest if they were to do it the long way. This is why I only documented the short cut not every last bit. For that you can refer to the BGB. 
 Since many of us are experienced we can get though most of it on feel and intuition or search the board or other boards for clues.
   Regardless I apologize if I made it seem easier then it is as I often think that if I can do it everyone else can and that might not be the case as everyones level of experience is different including the assortment of tools they posses. 
 I would take it to a shop and have them do it but keep in mind most shops will not to the short cut. In my area they will do it by the book and will want to get paid for the full job.

[bobbe]

I'm very happy to give it a go myself if I can figure out how to deal with whatever problems come up. I've done various bits of work on cars in the past, including - most recently - swapping out the OEM exhaust manifold on my MR2 for an aftermarket header.

The photos from your guide don't show any grommet in place:



But from researching around it seems like the grommet has cuts in it to allow the cables to be inserted or removed (see, e.g., here. So that's a solvable problem - unbolt the bracket, pull the cable out of the grommet. It seems like that will necessitate removing some of the plastic from the rear storage buckets to get at it, but that's doable.

I can get hold of a cut off tool relatively inexpensively if needs be (e.g. like this one), so again that's a solvable problem.

The other thing, though, is the clip holding the cable to the rear of the shifter assembly, marked with the red circle here:

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I just cannot for the life of me get it to budge

[Dev]

I do not recall how I removed that clip. But if I was in this position I would try a flat screw driver and wedge it from below the lip to lift it out.

Another way I use to remove the clip is to use a large pair of channel locks on the clip and use my muscles to lift it up. 

If these methods fail I would unbolt the shifter cage and tap it out from underneath.
 

[Dev]

 One thing to keep in mind. If you are replacing with two used cables and its only one that is bad, I would only replace the bad one. The likely hood of the other cable being good is very high and much easier to finish.
If that cable goes bad in the future  you have the other spare cable and know how to do the job again if you have to.

Also keep in mind just incase. The right cable is different than the left cable. 



 

[Carolyn]

@bobbe: I've sent you a Personal Message.