Squeaks from brakes

[alexm9]

Hi all, so after lurking for a while I joined the forum.  To be honest, I thought I'd actually signed up 18 months ago when I bought my fantastic 54 Red edition, but clearly I hadn't!

After a problem free and very happy 20k miles or so, I noticed last month while cleaning my front discs were in a terrible state.  I ordered some new discs (Camskill) and pads (EBC Green Stuff), and while waiting the brakes started to become noticeably bad.  The passenger side front seemed to be binding, and a squeak squeak squeak (likely warped discs too) could be heard easily at low speed.  It was noticeably worse when turning right, and the noise could be controlled by applying the brakes, indicating they were the cause.  This got gradually worse until I replaced the discs and pads (which were in a terrible state, especially on the inside) when they arrived last week.

All fitted easily enough, and the brakes are braking as they should, but after 400 miles the passenger side squeak squeak squeak has returned at low speed (and it is brake related, since the noise goes if I apply a little braking pressure), although is certainly not as noticeable as with the old discs / pads.  Again, it is worse when turning right!  After a 15 minute journey today, I noticed the passenger side disc is quite a bit hotter than the drivers side too.

My thoughts are; there is a stickiness on this passenger side somewhere, so I intend to remove and clean up the slider pins when I get a chance.  I think the on / off warp like sound is likely to be down to an excess of crap on the hub, causing the disc to be slightly misaligned.  I can't imagine the disc is warped within 400 miles?

I wanted to post on here to see if any of you very helpful people had any further ideas?

Also, on an (I think) unrelated note; there is quite a bit of vibration through the steering wheel, which is gradually more irritating the faster I drive.  I'm getting a local tyre garage to dynamically balance the front wheels tomorrow, I'm hoping it's nothing more serious.

Thanks!

[Steve Green]

My first thought is that you may have a wheel bearing on the way out. Applying the brakes will put load on the hub, perhaps enough to take up any slack in the bearing, so no squeek.

Otherwise a good clean up of the brake pads and their shims, with a light smear of Copper grease on all the metal to metal components will help.

[alexm9]

I hear what you're saying, but it seems strange that the problem has only just reappeared?  I was listening out very carefully for the previous 400 miles and no squeaks at all until this morning.  The squeak is a completely different tone and volume to the last almost certainly brake related squeak with the old discs / pads.

When replacing the discs / pads I did clean up and copper grease the spring casings.

Mileage is 47k, isn't that unusually low for a bearing?

[mrzwei]

The 2 seems to be pretty good with wheel bearings, don't get many issues reported on here. Usually it's a continuous 'rumble' which changes according to speed and in the end will drive you crazy so you change it (in reality it will go on for miles usually).

Loads of posts about sticking calipers though so this is the more likely culprit, particularly if one side is hotter than the other. Another sign would be pulling to the right or left for a fraction before the brakes hold.

Jack it up and see if the wheels turn equally freely before /  after the brake has been applied. (Plus wobble the wheel to check for any possible bearing wear).

If all of that is ok then you may have to live with it.

[aluk49]

I had exactly the same when I fitted Grooved & dimpled front discs from Camskill to my car....drove me mad, I had all 4 calipers refurbed at the same time as discs fitted, checked discs for run out twice, after 9 months of putting up with it, I got OEM discs from Toyota...problem fixed!

[alexm9]

Ok so I've had the front wheels balanced (one was a little out) and the vibration through the steering wheel remains.  At first I thought it was a little better, but it seems just as bad after a trip down the A27.  Beginning to think I'm going to have big bills!  I can't see anything wrong through visual inspection of the suspension components, but that's not going to tell me masses...

[doogz]

I think my next port of call would be to get a dial gauge onto the hub, see if it's flat.

I've been suffering the exact issue you speak of, turned out to be a bad disc. Had it on the car a week, took it off and put the old ones back on, problem solved. ECP are going to swap them for a new set for me.

But in your case, i'd imagine it's unlikely you've had 2 bad discs, on the same side, in a row. The disc rotating with a slight wobble means every revolution, or half revolution, the pad rubs against the disc, ever so lightly, even though you're not applying any brake pressure. That's what is making the noise.

So you really need to check and see if the mounting surface is flat. If I had to guess, I'd say that's your problem, but you really can't diagnose these things over the internet.

I'd also be checking to see the sliders are operating properly, and it's not sticking and applying the outboard pad unevenly to the disc. That wouldn't present itself right away when the materials were new, as it'd take a bit of time for the pad to start to wear, so check the pads for flatness too.

Hope it's nothing too expensive to sort!

[alexm9]

Thanks for your responses people.

Since the wheels were off and back on earlier, the squeaking has not returned (or at least it's no longer audible). This may be due to the fact I moved the disc from side to side on the hub with the wheel off to try and free any crap that's between the two surfaces.  However, the problematic side disc is still noticeably hotter.

I've also jacked the car up with the wheels on to check for any play.  All is absolutely fine, so I'm ruling out the wheel bearing.

Next step is clearly as doogz mentions!

I had a friend suggest the wheel vibration could be down to a subframe mount?

[Steve Green]

If a disk/hub is running hot, either the caliper sliders are sticky, the caliper piston is not moving smoothly, the disc is running out (you would notice that under heavy braking) or a wheel bearing is on its way out.

If a disc/hub overheats too much, it can melt the grease out of the wheel bearings, eventually causing the bearings to fail prematurely.

Eliminate each stage in turn.

[alexm9]

Ok yesterday I stripped down the brake, cleaned off the hub, cleaned the disc, inspected and cleaned the boots, pin holder and slider pins (re-greased all with red rubber grease, it looks like someone had put petroleum jelly in last time) and re-assembled.  I pushed the calliper piston out a little and compressed back to check for free movement, it seemed pretty free and easy.  Anyway, the squeaks seem to now be absent, and the wheel wobble has noticeably decreased.  However, the disc is still running a little hotter than the drivers side, although not by as much!

It seems I might have to invest in a replacement calliper, unless anyone has any better ideas?  I understand you can service the calliper itself, but it sounds like quite a time consuming job, and doesn't have the guarantee that a new unit would.

[Steve Green]

I might have read your post incorrectly but

Red rubber grease is intended for lubricating RUBBER parts, not the slider pins themselves or any metal to metal surfaces.
Red rubber grease is Brake fluid friendly so can be used to assemble the piston and rubber seals on a caliper, and to make the fitment of rubber boots easier.

Sliders should be lubricted with a good quality lithium grease, with good water wash characteristics.

All metal to metal parts, the anti squeal shims, backs of pads and spring clips, should be lubricated sparingly with Copper Grease.

[alexm9]

Well, after researching this forum, I was led to believe red rubber grease is suitable for lubricating the pins and the boot!  It better have been, I spent a good hour driving around town trying to locate the damn stuff in the first place!

 l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29915&p=366812 l

[alexm9]

I have of course, used copper grease on the spring clips etc.

[Steve Green]

Well, after researching this forum, I was led to believe red rubber grease is suitable for lubricating the pins and the boot!  It better have been, I spent a good hour driving around town trying to locate the damn stuff in the first place!

 l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29915&p=366812 l

Hmm
Link is from someone with less than 20 posts, not that that means anything about his technical ability, but I do wonder.
It says more to me about the average technical ability of Toyota mechanics.

Check out any of the Red Rubber Grease suppliers like http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-999-fuchs-renolit-red-rubber-grease-grease-for-use-on-elastomers.aspx and they are quite clear, it is for assembling rubber components. No other application is specified.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is a common misconception because it is VERY useful for some rubber seal assembly jobs.

Did the tub? you bought come with any product description or data sheet? What does that say?

I am off now to add a comment on your link.

PS. Was once advised by a Toyota Service Manager that standard gear oil could be used in a SMT hydraulic system. VERY VERY WRONG!

[Steve Green]

Well, after researching this forum, I was led to believe red rubber grease is suitable for lubricating the pins and the boot!  It better have been, I spent a good hour driving around town trying to locate the damn stuff in the first place!

 l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29915&p=366812 l

And it was his last post!!!

I hope he is OK

[alexm9]

Well not only the post I pointed out concurs, but the majority of forum members from other forums also recommend using it!  Quickly Googling "red rubber grease slider pins" will reveal the support for it.  I feel a bit peeved now though after your comments.

[alexm9]

No datasheet with the tub I'm afraid.

[Steve Green]

I am a mechanical engineer of 30+ years experience. Not specifically automotive, but on many different system from food processing, heavy plant, and general machinery.
I have never used Red Rubber Grease in any other application than specific to fitting rubber seals, bushes, boots, oil seals etc.

The problem is that internet lore spreads and resurfaces until it becomes truth, and the unwary and trusting amongst us do not check for themselves and read the original source data from manufacturers suppliers etc.

It may be that your use of Red Rubber Grease may work fine for you, but it goes against all the Toyota Manuals I have and the grease Manufacturers Data Sheets.

[wotugonado]

Now im confused  s:? :? s:?   i too have read on this forum that red rubber grease is the stuff to use on the pins, but you reccommend lithium grease. Its not a criticism i just want to be clear before i buy the wrong stuff.

[alexm9]

I agree that the application of RRG seems a little strange for this purpose, but I put my faith in others advice on this forum (and others to back up those recommendations!), I don't trust everything I read, I thought I'd done enough to verify this though.  Anyway, it sounds quite logical and sensible that lithium grease is the correct lubricant.  I'll re-grease when I change the caliper, for now it's moving easier than before, so it is at least an improvement in the short term!

[Steve Green]

I just looked on youtube and found this

[youtube:3qa0urm8]hjsM9sPKOiY[/youtube:3qa0urm8]

Apart from it being quite boring to watch, he admits to have been on the booze and in another video he posted he has a condom on his head!
Would you take advice from him?
Seriously?

I have just spoken to:
Millers Oils
Nigel Skimming
Technical Support
Tel 01484 ******
E-Mail  e mailto:nigel.skimming@millersoils.co.uk">nigel.skimming@millersoils.co.uk e

My question was simple. "Should you use RRG on caliper sliders."
His answer was simple. "NO, it's for the lubrication of rubber and associated components which are in contact with rubber."

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/industrial/tds-industrial.asp?prodsegmentID=267&sector=Greases%20&%20Compounds.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-999-fuchs-renolit-red-rubber-grease-grease-for-use-on-elastomers.aspx

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014109&contentId=7027101

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/prodview.asp?idProduct=365

http://www.silkoleneoil.com/products/86/710-oil-maintenance-products.aspx

http://www.granvilleoil.com/pdfTechData2.php?ptdID=165

http://www.smithandallan.com/documents/PRODUCT%20INFO%20RED%20RUBBER%20GREASE.pdf

All of these make reference to RRG being a rubber/elastomer lubricant, many talk about calipers because the grease is compatable with brake fluid.
None mention caliper sliders.

Like the internet lore of changing handbrake cables when the problem is infact caliper auto adjusters, hopefully I have put this one to bed.  s8) s8)

[alexm9]

Fair enough Steve, thanks for well and truly clearing that up!

I'm going to order a replacement calliper for the troublesome side.  Could anyone tell me, is there any advantage or reasoning by replacing both sides at the same time?

[Steve Green]

General advice must be to treat both sides the same for all things Brakes, Suspension, Steering etc.

A new caliper on one side, will get new pads, so you will be changing the other!.

It's an ideal time to check that everything is OK even if you suspect it is.

With a component like a rear caliper, provided the autoadjuster is working, there is little else that actually wears out.

For a little extra effort, checking that sliders are working OK, you will have peace of mind.

[alexm9]

I may be misunderstanding this slightly, but are you saying I need to replace my month old pads when I replace the calliper?

[Steve Green]

I may be misunderstanding this slightly, but are you saying I need to replace my month old pads when I replace the calliper?

Month old normal mileage they are barely worn in. Six months, its time to change them.