Another annoying precat question

[Anonymous]

Sorry all,

I'm really struggling to understand, from the diagrams I've seen, exactly where the pre cats are and how to inspect them. I really want to check them, as obviously, I'm as worried as everyone else who has them still, but I don't know where I should be looking. Am I right in thinking the circled area below is the place where the pre cats live?



If so, is it just a case of removing the front exhaust manifold (the black part in the photo) and the metal cover shown in red on the picture with the two rusty bolts? From there, will I be able to see the state of my precats?

Sorry to ask such probably dumb questions, but rather than pay someone £300 odd, I'd really like to have a go myself at this...

[Anonymous]

To just inspect them, all you need is an O2 socket and a torch.

Remove the O2 sensors (the leads sticking out from the heatshield, which the is the bit with the rusty bolts you've circled), and peer down them with a torch. You'll see the precat matrix easily if it's there, and panic like buggery if you don't.

[Anonymous]

Take it steady with the two rusty bolts.  One of mine was like a banana and sheared.  Warm the engine up, use plenty of plusgay and take it easy.  The two bolts at the front (below the black heat shield) of the manifold cover should be a little easier.

Look on ebay etc for a 22m O2 socket and remove the 02 sensors (unclip the wire connection from the 02 sensors into the loom first).  Again take it steady with the 02 sensors - there are reports of cross threaded ones.

[Anonymous]

Ah - good move, Slurpy. You're thinking the right way. Check these things and get rid of them post-haste. The above instructions are correct. You need an 02 sensor socket and a strong ratchet wrench. Unclip the sensor leads and fit the socket. Unscrew each sensor. Many owners discover cross-threaded sensors at this stage and if you do, you'll need a breaker bar to rip the sensors out, but they've got to come out. No matter what.

You'll expose a hole on each side of the heat shield and can peer into it with a torch and examine the precats. Pray to God that you see clean, perfect-looking latticework. The matrix should be flawless. Then remove the manifold and rip them out with a hammer, screwdriver, drill, whatever it takes, and save the motor.

[roger]

Many owners discover cross-threaded sensors at this stage and if you do, you'll need a breaker bar to rip the sensors out, but they've got to come out. No matter what.

I had this...sensor still there with no "grip" left, we rounded it all off so degutted with it in.   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  No fault lights so it looks as though sensor not damaged, but it is something i want to put right in the future.

Now we have SP I'm talking to them about getting serious with it.

[Anonymous]

I'm starting to get worried now, there seem to be a lot more of these engine failures being blamed on the pre-cats recently.

Has anybody had a definitive answer from Toyota of the status of the warranty on a vehicle that has been pre-cat gutted?

Given that there is some uncertainty whether pre-cat failure is cause or effect I've got just under 3 years of extended warranty. If my engine gives up due to pre-cat failure it will be repaired under warranty. If my engine gives up and when they strip it they find, not that the pre-cat matrix is rattling around in the bottom of the manifold, but that it is completely missing I don't hold much hope of them respecting the warranty, I sure as hell wouldn't in their shoes.

[mg]

If anyone wants my spare after the TTET they can pick it up from SP.  It is new and I know all the threading is intact (painted heat shield as well).

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much everyone!

I've managed to source an O2 Socket wrench from a motorstore round the corner from me... £7.. that'll do!

So this weekend, I shall be removing the O2s to look at my precats. If they're in a bad way, and I don't get too much jip off the bolts, I'll be removing what's left.

Do some cars, (just to give me some hope) not have precat problems at all? Is there any chance, that on my 2000, 65k mile '2, the precats will still be all nice and lovely?  Also, is there any chance that me removing the O2 sensors could cause problems with the precats (fresh air getting to them!   s:P s:P  )

[markiii]

There is a chance they will still be intact, but on a 200 plate (pre susposed engine changes) and with 65K I'd be surprised if they are.

make sure you soak the boldts with plusgas several times first, and I mean teh real stuff not that crappy Halfords own brand.
also best to have teh car up to temp first, you'll need gloves but it makes teh bolts so much easier to get out.

[roger]

Has anybody had a definitive answer from Toyota of the status of the warranty on a vehicle that has been pre-cat gutted?

No. Doubt any answer from a garage could be considered definitive.
 

Given that there is some uncertainty whether pre-cat failure is cause or effect I've got just under 3 years of extended warranty. If my engine gives up due to pre-cat failure it will be repaired under warranty.

Hopefully. IIRC there have been cases of it being refused because the owner was deemed to have let the oil level drop, and failure of pre-cats were not even entertained as being the problem. It was the effect! Can you prove cause?

If my engine gives up and when they strip it they find, not that the pre-cat matrix is rattling around in the bottom of the manifold, but that it is completely missing I don't hold much hope of them respecting the warranty, I sure as hell wouldn't in their shoes.

You must be a garage owner! The pre-cat material has nothing to do with the engine. How can they say missing pre-cats have caused the engine failure? TBH they probably wouldn't even know they were missing   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I appreciate we have never come across this scenario yet, but I thought it a small price to pay against the possible struggles I would have if the worst did come to the worst.

Remember if they do accept responsibility (and it may cost you an engine strip down if they don't) will they replace the cat? Do you want just a short engine rebuild? Do you want a chance of it happening again? Will they replace the manifold?

[Anonymous]

If my engine gives up and when they strip it they find, not that the pre-cat matrix is rattling around in the bottom of the manifold, but that it is completely missing I don't hold much hope of them respecting the warranty, I sure as hell wouldn't in their shoes.

You must be a garage owner! The pre-cat material has nothing to do with the engine. How can they say missing pre-cats have caused the engine failure? TBH they probably wouldn't even know they were missing   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I wish! There might have been the odd time where I'd have made money on a vehicle.

Looking at some of the other pre-cat threads there's more than one person worrying that they could have bits of pre-cat dust floating around that they have missed. If pre-cat matrix breakdown is the cause of the engine failure then, if the user has carried out a non-approved modification, who is to say that they haven't caused the failure themselves by not removing all the dust?

[Anonymous]

Slurpy - Just to say that mine had 49k on it when I had it done. Its a 2000w.

The left one was starting to flake slightly, and I mean slightly, and the right one was absolutely fine - so ya never know.

Hope it is all fine.

Roo.

[red_leicester]

Do some cars, (just to give me some hope) not have precat problems at all?

If you take a look at 3 of the last 4 posts here

 m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... &start=300 m

and add Roo and myself to the list, then I'd say there's a reasonable chance that some cars do not have a precat problem.  In fact, I'd say there's lots and lots that don't !

[markiii]

If my engine gives up and when they strip it they find, not that the pre-cat matrix is rattling around in the bottom of the manifold, but that it is completely missing I don't hold much hope of them respecting the warranty, I sure as hell wouldn't in their shoes.

You must be a garage owner! The pre-cat material has nothing to do with the engine. How can they say missing pre-cats have caused the engine failure? TBH they probably wouldn't even know they were missing   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I wish! There might have been the odd time where I'd have made money on a vehicle.

Looking at some of the other pre-cat threads there's more than one person worrying that they could have bits of pre-cat dust floating around that they have missed. If pre-cat matrix breakdown is the cause of the engine failure then, if the user has carried out a non-approved modification, who is to say that they haven't caused the failure themselves by not removing all the dust?

simple answer, do a propoer job of it  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

or if your really worried buy one of che's manifolds

[roger]

Unfortunately every six months or so this "discussion" comes up yet again, when all the new members get their knowledge base up to a level.

There are really only 4 options.

1. Ignore it and hope it doesn't happen (and I am guessing this must be over 90% of owners).
2. Keep your warranty up, and if the worst comes to the worst hope its worth more than the paper it's written on.
3. Gut the pre-cats, or put in a new manifold, knowing this might reduce the risk (and then rely on 1. or 2.)
4. Flog the car while it still has some value in it, and go and buy an MX5 (washes mouth out).

Everybody is different, there will be different views on cause / effect / risk aversion / cost / liability etc etc.

There are no definitive FACTS available, otherwise Toyota would publish them. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Anonymous]

Hmm so hang on a moment.. there's a chance that if I do gut my pre-cats the situation could get worse than if I just left it?

If that's the case, I'm happy to lump with option 1...

[Anonymous]

Hmm so hang on a moment.. there's a chance that if I do gut my pre-cats the situation could get worse than if I just left it?

If that's the case, I'm happy to lump with option 1...

What, the head in the sand approach?  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Surely option 2 is a minimum? The £200 approx. it could cost to have someone else gut the precats is well on the way to a years extended warranty.....I know it's money you might never use (ie never claim), but it's a damn sight better than £1000+ if the worst does happen.

Personally, being the lucky soul that I am with cars, if it can happen, it usually does!  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:    s:) s:)

[Anonymous]

But for me, I've bought the car from a chap with no warranty. Can I then phone Toyota and ask for a year's warranty on it as is? It's a 2000 plate. I can't see them saying, "Yeah, here have a year's warranty.."

[Anonymous]

I think removing the precats is a win-win situation.

I can't see how oil loss/engine wear is going to get worse by removing them and you are removing at least one problem and the anxiety that comes with it.

I paid a local mecanic £90 to remove mine (but he's someone who i have been using since i bought my first car 17 years ago) - best £90 i ever spent.

[Bongo]

But for me, I've bought the car from a chap with no warranty. Can I then phone Toyota and ask for a year's warranty on it as is? It's a 2000 plate. I can't see them saying, "Yeah, here have a year's warranty.."

You should be able to buy an extended warranty from them.

[Anonymous]

But for me, I've bought the car from a chap with no warranty. Can I then phone Toyota and ask for a year's warranty on it as is? It's a 2000 plate. I can't see them saying, "Yeah, here have a year's warranty.."

I think it is dependant on service history/and/or inspection of vehicle before warranty is granted....but that could be complete bunkum    s:oops: :oops: s:oops:   (waits to be corrected).

The whole situation is a real toughie.....I know I kept swinging one way then the other (not sexually) on the whole thing. I have decided to stick with my warranty and leave well alone, for better or for worse (for today anyway!!).   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Honestly, if I was not in my position, I would gut VERY thoroughly, or sell the car. Just my opinion, and it carries no weight whatsoever, so don't shoot me down for it!    s:? :? s:?   I just wouldn't fancy driving around in a car with a possibly very expensive fault, without having done something to prevent it OR have some kind of cover.    s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

[roger]

I think removing the precats is a win-win situation.

That was my decision about 6 months ago, FWIW.

If its the engine problem, as we are discussing on the other thread, then this has made no difference and a Warranty claim should be OK.

[red_leicester]

I think removing the precats is a win-win situation.

I can't see how oil loss/engine wear is going to get worse by removing them and you are removing at least one problem and the anxiety that comes with it.

I paid a local mecanic £90 to remove mine (but he's someone who i have been using since i bought my first car 17 years ago) - best £90 i ever spent.

I've got absolutely nothing against precat removal, in fact I might even get it done myself one of these days!   But... how can spending £90 be a win-win situation if your precats would have never given up ?  
I think Roger hit the nail on the head with his post (4 choices).  Although the possibility of precat failure is very real, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that every Roadster will suffer precat failure within x miles, let alone during it's whole vehicle life.  Who knows what % of Roadsters have suffered precat failure ?

The other thing to remember is that there is the possibility of leaving some of the matrix in the chamber as dust, which would be just as bad as precat failure, which is why if I were to get mine gutted I would only take it to a reputable outfit such as Silverstone Performance.

Just my 2p worth.

[Anonymous]

Ok well, from what you have all said (and again it's much appreciated) I shall be checking my pre cats tomorrow or this evening and either removing or leaving them depending on how they look. I'll keep you all posted...

Keep your fingers crossed for me!   s:? :? s:?

[roger]

Just 2 final thoughts for you Slurpy,

1. Remember you can only see the TOP of the pre-cat. If that's damaged the bottom most certainly is. If its not, it doesn't mean the bottom isn't. And it's bits from the bottom that could get in the engine.

2. Getting rid of pre-cat residue calls for a hose / high pressure wash down. Do it before the hose-pipe ban!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink: