Creaking Front Suspenion / Lubricating mounts

Chris_h · April 12, 2006, 00:05

Hi folks,

I've been reading through the archives about this and it appears to have been a common problem. However, the only threads I could find were back in 2004 when most of your cars were under warranty - so they were taken to the dealer to fix, hence no discussion regarding DIY lubrication.

My car has recently become a little creaky when turning the steering wheel at a standstill or slow speeds. Sounds like dry / poss worn bushes / top mounts. No adverse effects on the handling, so assuming I may get away with a good 'lube'. - then if it persists it could be more £££ s:(

s:(

Does anyone know what is the best method of doing this?

1) Lubrication product:
- Is it some kind of spray oil?
- Anyone have advice on what product I should buy?

2) What exactly should I lube?
- I know the top mounts and any bush I can locate - ARB, Wishbones etc
- Will I need to remove the inner tray to get to these?
- Any other parts I should 'lube' whilst I am at it?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated to save me time / expense... s:D

s:D

BTW - I also get the 'skipping' / clonking on full lock... although a tyre change is imminent and warmer weather has reduced this.

kanujunkie · April 12, 2006, 09:14

Quote from: "Chris_h"Does anyone know what is the best method of doing this?

1) Lubrication product:
- Is it some kind of spray oil?
- Anyone have advice on what product I should buy?

2) What exactly should I lube?
- I know the top mounts and any bush I can locate - ARB, Wishbones etc
- Will I need to remove the inner tray to get to these?
- Any other parts I should 'lube' whilst I am at it?

BTW - I also get the 'skipping' / clonking on full lock... although a tyre change is imminent and warmer weather has reduced this.

Q1 - i dont know what Mr.T uses but i'd guess its some sort of Teflon based grease, go ask them.

Q2 - you need to remove the whole leg to get to the top mounts properly, its not a hard job, just jack the car, remove the wheel, theres 2 bolts at the bottom and 3 on top of the shock strut,you need to remove the inner trim tray to get to the top bolts. This will give you access to everything, just remember you may want to get it re-aligned after you've done it all

as for the skipping bit, quite a few people have this problem, Aaron thought it was to do with the tyre gripping and then releaseing its pressure, but whatever it is they all seem to do it in the cold. It isn't anything to worry about

Chris_h · April 12, 2006, 13:13

Cheers Stu...

Will report back to see how I get on...

GSB · April 12, 2006, 13:22

Quote from: "kanujunkie"just remember you may want to get it re-aligned after you've done it all

Correction here: You will DEFINITELY need to have it re-aligned once you've undone those 2 bolts at the bottom of the strut. They are directly responsible for Camber, but due to the way our suspension works, they will indirectly alter the Toe angles too...

Quote from: "kanujunkie"as for the skipping bit, quite a few people have this problem, Aaron thought it was to do with the tyre gripping and then releaseing its pressure, but whatever it is they all seem to do it in the cold. It isn't anything to worry about

Do a search for the word "Ackerman" and the author "GSB". All will be explained, and then you can get stop worrying... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

EDIT:

Here's the info...

Quote from: "GSB"Want an explanation? I looked into this problem recently, and I have been able to ascertain there are 2 seperate issues with the front suspension that cause this knocking...

The first of these is dry or worn suspension top mounts. These are bearings that allow the front macpherson struts to swivel with the steering. When these dry out, or become worn, you will notice a distict rattle from them, especialy in turns. I used to notice it most in myold car when turning right into my driveway. Theres a dropped curb there, about 1/3" high. When turning in this curb would make the strut tops rattle.

The second of these, and the one that will affect all cars, is one of design... In basic terms, its caused by the front wheels not pointing in the same direction.

The steering geometry is carefully designed using ackerman geometry so that when you turn, one wheel moves more than the other. This is due to the fact that one wheel needs to follow a different - tighter - radius to the other. To give the correct angles for tight and shallow turns the difference in steering angle between the 2 wheels increases the further you turn the wheel. All this is engineered into the steering by careful placement of all the various pivot points etc. If you want to know more, google "Ackerman steering geometry"

The downside of this careful geometry is that when you get to full lock, the wheels are actually pointed in markedly different directions. This generates side loadings on the tyres. With these loadings, one of 2 things will happen:

1/ On nice hot supple rubber, the tread blocks will squirm and flex and let the loads out very smoothly, you probably wont even notice.

2/ On cold rubber, or tyres so worn that the tread blocks have very limited movement, the rubber will load up to its limit of adhesion, and then let go. It does this very quickly, and the repeats the process. This is what you feel as a knocking...

Chris_h · April 12, 2006, 13:33

Cheers GSB

I had read about Ackerman... I assume the basis that it effects the MR2, Boxster et al is that there is hardly any weight pushing down up front. Seems strange how nobody told Toyota this - from reading the archives it appears they have spent £££ trying to cure this skipping problem on warranty.

I'm trying to get some long nozzle spray grease and hopefully lube without removing entire strut. I am working on the basis I would probably need new top mounts at some point - so if this doesn't work, I will just have to bite the bullett and go for uprate springs at the same time... s:D

s:D

kanujunkie · April 12, 2006, 17:31

bloody hell Grant you've got a good memory, Ackerman aint the sort of word that sticks

GSB · April 12, 2006, 18:23

Quote from: "kanujunkie"bloody hell Grant you've got a good memory, Ackerman aint the sort of word that sticks

Funny, the future Mrs. GSB said something similar the other day, along the lines of:

"How is it you can remember ...

(Insert inane trivia here, for instance:
What size spanners you need to remove the gearbox on a car you havent seen for 10 years / The type of car used in every film car chase, along with power, engine specs, and reasons it cant go as fast as they show on screen / Unique design points of obscure classics, and the design cues they inspired on future models / Technical details on objects so obscure that no-ones ever heard of them - or cares... etc.etc.etc.)

... and havent the foggiest idea who you're talking to when the colleague/mate/lifelong best friend I introduced you to only last week says hello to you, and has to endure 5 minutes of general chit chat before I remind you who they are?....

An eventful and enlightening evening, as I'm sure you can imagine... She eventually came to the conclusion it must be becasue I dont care. s:roll: :roll: s:roll: If it wern't for the knife she had in her hand at the time I'd have been tempted to agree...

Chris_h · April 12, 2006, 19:51

Grant,

Thanks for searching out that info.

I am working on the basis I do have worn bearings - however, my symptoms are different to yours - no knocking for instance.

The noise is definitely coming from the suspension are and occurs when nearing full lock at standstill or walking pace. Its is clearly the top mounts, as is occuring as one corner rises and the other falls (as happens when nearing full lock). The sound is more of a very light 'graunching' noise' - the same noise that ropes make when loaded up. Clearly it is a friction thing from the car moving on the mounts at standstill, I tried squirting a load of teflon grease up there - but no different.

Its in for a service next week, so will see if they can grease with the strut in situ. Otherwise, no detrimental handling effects - in fact, since its warmed up a bit, the car has come alive with amazing grip..

Chris

PS - Grant / Stu.
re. Ackerman, is the MR2 prone to the symptoms because there is little weight up front? never known any other car to do it.

GSB · April 12, 2006, 20:35

For what its worth, both my MR2's have always done it... The current one, with only 18,000 on the clock, does it every time I take it out of the garage, and always has done from new. Knocks, rattles, shimmies & creaks...

The worst car I have is a 10,000 mile old Ford ranger pick up, that bangs and crashed very alarmingly on full lock. That one actually sounds like the springs are going to leap out of thier platforms! I had an opel manta that did it rather alot, and a Dutton B+ with cycle wings that allowed you actually see it happening. It could be that effect is even worse with a locking diff fitted to the car, due to the tendency of the back wheels not wanting to turn corners..

Chris_h · April 12, 2006, 20:41

Thanks - its a bit reassuring.

I'm not really worried about a failure - more the sweet handling being affected as it deteriorates (I'm talking about the groaning / not bother about the skipping / clonking of full lock). Assuming it still drives well, I will probably defer doing anything until I have decided what to do re. susp upgrade.

I have only had one car that made a noise on full lock - it happened once, then the spring head snapped!!

Cheers

Chris