SMT - No gears

[Anonymous]

'03 SMT - need some advice before I go to visit a dealer.

2 months ago, I got the persistent warning light and it wouldn't change out of 2nd gear.  Took it to mr. T who took 4 days to tell me they didn't really have a clue, but it needed 2 litres of gearbox oil - but they couldn't find a leak (hmm...).  It worked fine until 2 weeks ago when the light came on again, then went out after 15 minutes driving.

Picture the scene this morning; stopped at the traffic lights, on a hill, what appeared to be every other road user behind me - no gear selection (forward or reverse) at all.  Did the usual turn-off, leave for a couple of minutes, then fire up again (much to the enjoyment of everyone behind me).  No joy until I did this for the 8th time (I think I can now distinguish 48 different cars by their horn alone).  When it eventually dropped into 1st, light went out and all in the garden was rosy.  Anyone any clues as to what the hell this could be, as I have read several threads that scare the bejesus out of me - 800 quid seems to be a number commonly used when talking about SMTs?

Hobbs

[cclarke99]

Unfortunately I don't have the manual for the SMT so this is all guesswork, but I would start by checking the oil level in the pump reservoir (in the engine compartment). Also check the connector and wiring to the pressure switch on the pump. Beyond that you really need to get someone to download the stored information in the ECU and then work from there. According to the training manual, even if the light is not on at the time the tester is connected historical fault data (DTCs and freeze frame data) is stored in the ECU. So they should have an idea of what went wrong when you couldn't get moving - once they have the data "don't have a clue" is not an acceptable answer. The DTC should indicate the area of the fault and the manual tells them to follow a step by step procedure to isolate it. This may, unfortunately, lead to a £800 ECU replacement, but I'd want them to be able to clearly expalin what is wrong and how they arrived there before handing over that sort of money

[Anonymous]

Thanks cc, I'll check those out.

As a matter of interest, on the original fault mr T called me on the second day they had the car and asked me if I wanted them to carry out the flow-chart procedure you mentioned (at a cost of £120).  When I asked them what my options were, their response was "er, we don't really know what else to do" (this gave me loads of confidence, as you can imagine).  So, £50 to plug the reader in, £120 for what I would expect to be part of the process and the total result was that they couldn't find anything wrong - apart from the shortage of oil (at £90 for the top-up).

I spent some time last night looking through loads of threads on this subject (seems to be a recognised issue among SMT owners) and I couldn't find much consistency in what the various dealers did to fix the problem.  I have this vision of the old telly programme Bullseye and hoping they don't get two in a bed!

The car's driving ok today, but the SMT light came on 5 minutes into the journey, then went off again after 20 minutes - weird.

Here's a question - do you get to keep the old ECU if they change it?  The only reason I ask is that I'm told 75% of all changed-out ECUs tested ok.

Hobbs

[cclarke99]

Although it's an unusual request, you owned the old one when it was fixed to the car as you drove it into the garage, so it's still yours after they've sold you the new one. The exception to this is parts which are "exchange" where the old ones are sent away for refurbishment, but I can't imagine that's the case with an ECU. The only other reason I can think of is if the faulty items are sent back for investigation as part of a product improvement process. The main problem with the old one is testing it to prove it's OK, as it's not worth much without that.

Regarding the code, there's a list of people with readers on the forum, if one of them would be kind enough to download it then it might be possible to make some more progress.

£170 to follow the diagnostic procedure seems a bit steep and, if they had a code to start with, at the end of it  they must have reached some sort of conclusion, none of the flowcharts I've seen lead to "don't really know what else to do"

[filcee]

Beyond that you really need to get someone to download the stored information in the ECU and then work from there. According to the training manual, even if the light is not on at the time the tester is connected historical fault data (DTCs and freeze frame data) is stored in the ECU. So they should have an idea of what went wrong when you couldn't get moving - once they have the data "don't have a clue" is not an acceptable answer.

I think I can confirm that data is stored and available for fault finding.  My '03 threw a gearbox light within 300 miles from new.  Fortunately I was 5 mins from a Mr T. dealership and (after haggling to get it looked at there and then) they "downloaded" the data from the control unit, pronouncing that it showed "unexpected clutch slip".  (This may have been a result of me being too gentle with the throttle at low speeds whilst in the early part of running in.)  I'm not sure what was done to fix it, possibly the "learning procedure" was re-run - though I'm not sure I've ever seen an accurate write up of how this is initiated or carried out.

I suppose that adds one more thing to your list - is the clutch OK?  Other causes of SMT problems seen here have been actuators or switches, if I recall correctly.

[Chris]

I can't be too specific, so possibly not too helpful, but I had pretty similar issues to you a few years back, but unfortunately never got a clear description of exactly what the fault or indeed remedy was in the 30+ days they had my car.  The fix was under warranty, so I never saw any costs, the best I could get out of them was that they replaced a valve.

If you had been in traffic going up that hill, it's possible that the clutch and/or smt fuild could've got too hot to maintain normal operation, but had cooled sufficiently by the time of your 8th restart - that's certainly happened to me; crawling up a hill in traffic, then suddenly no gears, but all's well again after a 20 min rest at the side of the road...

Man, you gotta luv technology..   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[filcee]

One thing I've always done, since buying my first SMT in 2001, is to move the lever to neutral when stationary and apply the handbrake.  I don't know what started me with this habit, but I've rationalised it as 'giving the hardware a break'.  To my mind, if the lever is in 'S' or 'R' then something, somewhere must be doing some work of some sort - possibly making sure that there is fluid or pressure or springs ready to do whatever is required when the 'go' pedal is pressed.  Conversely, if the lever is in 'N', the system has been told to 'stand down' until next required.

Of course, this means that I'm always switching between 'S' and 'N' in traffic.  And waiting for a sufficiently large gap to open in front of me to avoid having to hold the car on the clutch by applying only a smidge of throttle.  

I could, of course, be talking complete cobblers - it has been known  s;-) ;-) s;-)

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Thanks for the additional input Phil & Chris (and of course cc)!

I checked out all the items cc pointed out - everything seems ok.

Would mr T not include the clutch as part of their checks?


For anyone who is interested, here's the latest update....

Took the car into mr T last Friday morning (after losing gears twice on Thursday night) and they pulled off the codes:
P1880 - Accumulator pressure sensor
P1781 - Shift level switch

mr T gave me a call on Friday evening to say they had cleared the codes, 'tweaked the sensor' and upgraded the software (?).  All-up it came to 70 quid and I was just happy it wasn't more.  Picked it up on Saturday and within 2 miles, the SMT warning light came back on and it took 3 goes to get it into 5th.  Not the best feeling in the world, I have to admit (although the trip showed me that they had taken it on at least one drive).

SMT warning light came on all week (but went out after 20 mins each time and the gears behaved themselves), but it would appear that my car doesn't like Thursdays.  In 3rd on the motorway, it decided to change down into 2nd, then the gear window went black - no gears after that, just the SMT light and the flashing green led (the one that flashes when the car puts you into neutral if you sit too long without moving).  Did the same this morning - twice (funilly enough Phil, I was in neutral the second time as you suggested but it seems it wanted to stay there!).

Anyway, it's now back with mr T, who has just called to let me know there are 3 faults showing and would I authorise a further hour for 'further investigation'.  The accumulator is showing again, a different sensor and, you've guessed it - the ECU.  I have a very bad feeling about this...

Will post an update when it becomes clearer.

[filcee]

Have a look at this thread - the P1880 code is mentioned.  Ultimately a cheap-ish relay was replaced which appeared to fix the problem:

http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4090&highlight=smt+actuator

IIRC mph had a pre-03 5-speed SMT, but turbo'd.

Hope this helps - and good luck finding the root cause.

[Anonymous]

Now I'm really confused!

mr T (guy on the service desk) called late Friday and said they may have to replace the SMT ECU.  Not content with this, he then went on to say that this might not fix the problem completely and they may have to change the main ECU as well.  At that point I'm afraid I just made a b-line for mr T to rescue my car.  I did manage to get hold of the techie and cornered him for 30 minutes (after being stung for another 64 quid).  He seemed to know what he was talking about and didn't really believe the ECU was the culprit.

He asked me about the first time it happened and immediately picked up on the fact that the previous mr T put 2 litres of oil in the transmission.  His opinion was that the pressure bowl within the pump may have gone and the oil leaks into the casing (hence no leaks visible).  Problem is, according to him, they can't fix these units and I would probably have to replace the whole pump assembly at.... wait for it.... £1,450 + VAT + fitting.  To give him his due, he did say that I should try to find one 'elsewhere' to keep the costs down (mr T will fit it, but no warranty).  I drove away smartly and only lost gears once on the way home...

Has anyone an opinion on this diagnosis?

Feasible?

Rollocks?

Santa, are you reading this?

[Anonymous]

This is of no real help but it just seems to me that the dealers just don't have the expertise to deal with the 'rare' smt.
At the end of the day this is just an electro hydraulically activated gizmo that is controlled by a computer which in itself relies on info from the main ecu. (loads more autos have this sort of system)
Easy to say, but there must be somebody out there who understands the way these things work.
If you are out there then just point the way (please   s:D s:D  )
I love my smt, it's why I bought the car (sad or what!)

[cclarke99]

All I've been able to find on SMT is a chart of fail safe modes for each of the fault conditions. The system trying to fail safe probably explains some of the odd symptoms you've been having. My guess is that the root cause is either low pressure because the pump has failed or a false low pressure signal because the switch has failed, giving code 1880. The code 1781 may indicate a switch problem, or might just be because loss of pressure is causing the gear lever/switch to get out of sync with the actual gears. However, the relay is another possiblity, if the motor had an intermittent connection in the supply, then this would explain it. Again no data, but my guess is that the relay location should be in the engine compartment box, at the end opposite to the connector. I'd be very surprised if something could leak 2 litres of oil without it showing, but if he's seen it before then it's possible. Does anyone out there have the book?

[Anonymous]

If somebody has got the reference for the book, then I'll buy it!

[Anonymous]

'Smee again...

I have to agree that mr T dealers appear to regard the workings of an SMT as 'smoke and mirrors'.  I've been to 3 separate dealers and each of them pin their hopes of finding out what's wrong by reading fault codes and following a flow chart - and none of the techies could point me in the direction of a 'guru'.  It all seems a bit hit and miss to me.

I've had another trawl of associated threads and I picked up on the pump priming (yes, I am getting desperate).  It's not really something I've paid attention to before, but I'm now hooked!  From opening the door, it runs for 35 secs which is a bit longer than the norm appears to be, so I thought I'd do a bit more on this...

This is a bit sad to admit, but I've never actually driven my car without some sort of music on, so... for the last 2 days it's been off to listen for the pump.  It seems to me that, at low speeds (less than 40 with steady acceleration), I get one gear change before the pump cuts in for 5 secs (shifting up or down).  Obviously at higher speeds the noise level prevents hearing the pump, but I suspect that it still cuts in.  When I stop, it runs for 10 - 15 secs.

I'm getting a bad feeling about this...

cc - are you an insomniac?

[Anonymous]

I think what we actually need to do is make some enquiries with some specialist gearbox firms; there are quite a few on the web. My only difficulty at the moment is that mine is working ok; I'll make a couple of general enquiries and if there is anything worth posting then
I'll post it!

[Anonymous]

i find it odd that the light comes on for the first 20 mins and even odder that the light goes out as a rule of thumb most transmission ecu`s will need to be reset by either cycling the ignition or reseting by the ecu with a code reader your right in saying most of the protocol is the same as an an auto transmission ecu
i do  have a comprehensive knowledge of the workings of the smt wife owns one and i also own an auto transmission garage also own a launch x431 which does give live data as well as carries out all the clutch adjustments etc electronicly dependent on your area may be willing to plug it in for you also have a good spare ecu long story but sort of how i came about the wifes smt

[Anonymous]

roberlea
Just the sort of expert the smt people need.
I've got no problem with mine at the moment but for future reference am more than happy to pay your going rate.
I don't know if Liz will let you give your business address?? (this of course assumes that you would want to so if I'm out of order then ignore!)
Maybe a pm?
Dave Smith

[Liz]

Not a problem from me - you could of looked him up in the Yellow pages! might want to keep it on pm's though.

[Chris]

apologies for not being about much lately, i've been continuing my own smt fight with toyota and the 3rd party warranty company...

Hobbs, i'm afraid to say that yours sounds like it's going down the same road as mine, as i noticed a more frequent pump operation shortly before mine went bang again for the 2nd time in 4 years.  Heard last week that the diagnosis is a knackered gear shift actuator @ £1384 + vat + 4 hours labour to fit at £90 + vat, and also possibly a pump (at a futher £1824 fitted) if that has been overworked by the knackered gsa.  

The pressure bowl in the pump leaking would sound feasible, and that is presumably where the faulty valve is that i've heard of before, and i've found out today that it was the pump that was replaced last time under warranty..

i think a letter to MrT is in order to get some level of good will assistance for a part that seems to have a design fault that causes it to fail twice in under 4 years/50k miles - obviously not fit for purpose..

<cynic mode>
No surprise that smt wasn't fitted to other models and is now now longer an option, huh?
</cynic mode>

[Anonymous]

I seriously suggest that you get a quote from roberlea

[Anonymous]

hello guys smt grrrrrrrr
seems the first thing toyota go for is the ecu or gear actuators (most expencive parts!!! )  the units are actually made by luk who we are in the process of trying to agree a deal for repaired service exchange units and are also trying to get baa reman to take up the case
with our own smt we was told that it had to have a new ecu & actuators instead turned out to need a new clutch and full reset of clutch settings only much less expencive than the £3000 + vat toyota wanted
my suggestions try the local transmission shop near you you will find one who knows enough to put it right probably at a fraction of the cost
  s:? :? s:?

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

sorry that I haven't posted any updates recently, but I've been trooping around central Scotland looking for someone who doesn't stare blankly at me when I ask them if they can look at my problem (11 turned me down flat, 4 said they 'knew a bit about the smt').  3 have had a look, called me up and admitted that they can't find the root of the problem.  To their credit, they didn't charge me a penny.  The last one told me to change out the less expensive parts in the chain, one at a time, until I have eliminated all but the dear options.

The thing is, I see a fair number of roadsters on the drive home - where do they go if they have a problem?

Chris - you're scaring me!

Roberlea - appreciate the guidance.  I seriously considered coming down to Kent, but as you can imagine, I don't have the confidence in the car to make it all the way.  I'll look into the transmission shops though.

I've stumbled across a way to stop it jumping out of gear (before any of you say "he's just kidding himself" I know this is only a short term respite).  When I start the car, instead of driving off as I would normally do, I let it idle for 10 minutes.  The warning light comes on after a few minutes, as usual, but I can drive to work (30 miles) without any mishaps.  It's the same on the way home.  In both cases, I have the weird experience of seeing the smt light go out just before I reach my destination...  2 weeks now!

If the pump was fubar, the above scenario wouldn't happen - would it?

[Chris]

cheers for the advice rob - i think i'll give you a call tomorrow..

apologies for scaring you hobbs!

just heard from the garage that after an initial refusal, toyota gb are offering the gsa and pump at £1000+vat each as a goodwill gesture...

[Anonymous]

hi hobbs  before i give you his number have you tried makies transmissions
if not i will get you his number after the holiday the guy loves things that everyone else is scared of in the gearbox game lol
got some time off now so will give yours a little thought and read the posts  a few times over i`d love  to know how long yours would drive for once hot too
if yours was auto it would be a solinoid sticking from cold or oil level low

[Chris]

well just an update for you all - i've had my actuator replaced for the 2nd time in 4 years, at a discounted cost of £1700 all in.  Now I reckon I've got about 25000 miles before it might go again - time for that extended warranty me thinks..   s:roll: :roll: s:roll: