Thinking aloud, tyres...

[ChrisGB]

The rear Hankook RS2s have had it. They have been good but are close to the wear markers now, so it is time for a change. New RS2s would be the obvious choice, the fronts are still hovering around the 4.5mm tread depth, so a pair of rears could be the solution.

I have been looking around at the Yokohama Advan Neova LTS (the AD05/06). Problem is that the price is on the up for these. Cheapest fitted would be around £480.

For that sort of money, I am very close to a pair of RS2 to see me over winter, then a set of R888 for next summer.

What do we reckon?

The car is not a daily driver, I can take something else when it is bucketing down. The RS2 have bee fine in the wet (getting a bit tricky now they are down to 2mm though).

Chris

[markiii]

no brainer for me

get the Neovas

[Anonymous]

+1

The feeling of the Neovas means you'd go arguably as quick on them as you would the R888s.

[ChrisGB]

Key question then, how do the neovas work out for dry grip? I have a. Good perspective on how dry grip relates between 048 / R888 / RS2, but where do the neovas fit into that? If we took 048 as say 10 and T1R as 1, where would the neovas land? Specifically I don't want to lose dry grip from where I am with the RS2.

Chris

[Steven Velocity]

Key question then, how do the neovas work out for dry grip? I have a. Good perspective on how dry grip relates between 048 / R888 / RS2, but where do the neovas fit into that? If we took 048 as say 10 and T1R as 1, where would the neovas land? Specifically I don't want to lose dry grip from where I am with the RS2.

Chris

I've driven on all 5, and as far as outright dry grip is concerned the pecking order is as follows:

->T1R
------------->RS2
----------------------------------------->Neova
------------------------------------------------------->AO48
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>R888.

Wet grip is most likely the reverse.

I'm not sure the cost comparisons in the UK, but here in the States its roughly as follows:


->RS2
---------------->T1R
----------------------------------------->Neova
----------------------------------------------------------------------->R888
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->AO48

That being said, how did you like your RS2? If you didn't mind them & are getting new tyres in the summer, then why not get another pair of RS2? You're already familiar with the characteristics of this tyre, its (potentially) the least expensive, and you'd have the same brand & model on all 4 corners.

I would be a tad wary of using the Neova, AO48, or R888 as a winter tyre, as their respective mfg's advise strongly against using them in snow or cold temps (read: hardened & cracked tyres  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  )

In regard to a summer tyre, I tried the R888 as a daily driven summer street tyre, (with a few track days thrown in for good measure) and honestly I'm on the fence about them for this application. They've lasted me about 6000 miles so far, but have heat cycled considerably from being driven everyday on the street, and now have no tread left. Remember the R888 is an R compound tyre, so its outstanding on dry roads, and absolutely brilliant on the track, (in fact it's my track tyre of choice) but it needs a wee bit more time to warm up to operating temps than a trip to the local Tesco would afford. The tyre likes to be driven hard, and doesn't reach its full potential until its has an adequate amount of heat. Also, the R888 is slightly less than stellar in the wet (although completely manageable, I had a damp track day out here and they did ok)  which the the roads there usually are.

Might I suggest to you the R1R as a good summer street tyre. This is what I'll be using next summer as my daily driven street tyre. Cost is slightly more than the T1R but less than the Neova, it can handle track days with no problem, and has excellent characteristics dry & wet. Here is a link to a UK review:


 m http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Toyo/R1R.htm m

[Anonymous]

I would be a tad wary of using the Neova, AO48, or R888 as a winter tyre, as their respective mfg's advise strongly against using them in snow or cold temps (read: hardened & cracked tyres  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  )

I suspect that relates only to the US, as the Neovas are supplied by Lotus for the S1 Elise over here for all weather, as are the A048s for the Exiges. Tsch, it's only because you lot will sue anyone over anything  s;) s;)   s;) s;)   s;) s;)

Interesting how you found the R888s to exceed the dry grip of the 048s, when most people over here tell tales of the opposite. Not calling you a liar or anything like that, I'm just wondering if the differences between the chassis on the Elise and MR2 contributes to this?

[aaronjb]

I would be a tad wary of using the Neova, AO48, or R888 as a winter tyre, as their respective mfg's advise strongly against using them in snow or cold temps (read: hardened & cracked tyres  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  )

I ran Neovas through late January through to early March if memory serves (definitely Feburary), and suffered no ill effects.. in fact they performed amazinly - grip in the wet was simply stunning, without even a single sideways moment, which is quite astounding considering the rears were basically slicks at that point.

[Steven Velocity]

I suspect that relates only to the US, as the Neovas are supplied by Lotus for the S1 Elise over here for all weather, as are the A048s for the Exiges. Tsch, it's only because you lot will sue anyone over anything  s;) s;)   s;) s;)   s;) s;)

Interesting how you found the R888s to exceed the dry grip of the 048s, when most people over here tell tales of the opposite. Not calling you a liar or anything like that, I'm just wondering if the differences between the chassis on the Elise and MR2 contributes to this?

slander! slander! I'll have you see my lawyer! lol  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  yeah some of the folks here are utterly rediculous...  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

The AO48 do warm up to max grip faster than the R888, and to my experience that max grip is higher than a cold R888, but it's far less than a warmed up R888. Some have also said the AO48 is more progressive when it lets go than the R888, which is probably true, so maybe the lotus blokes feel the AO48 is slightly easier to control on the ragged edge of 10/10ths.






or maybe they just can't drive. (runs for cover...  s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:  )

[ChrisGB]

Many thanks for the replies all. Steven, when you ran the Neova LTS, was it the AD05/06 like this:


Or the AD07 like this:


Interesting that you rate the RS2 quite close to the T1R in dry grip. I have found the RS2 to need significantly lower pressure than stock to really generate grip. I run 24.5 psi front 29 psi rear and find that once warm they are pretty good. Huge amounts more grip than I have had from T1R on other cars.

When comparing R888 to A048, it is also necessary to consider what version was run. Both are available in more than one compound. Some reckon the 048 to grip harder, some favour the R888. One guy I know putting 489bhp down the front wheels has tried them all (the Kumho V70 as well) and reckons the R888 in medium to the the best so far. He also ran them through last winter and they stayed in one piece, but it is not his daily commuter.

I am after the AD05/06 pattern Yokohamas if I go that direction. If they offer grip as good as the RS2 or better I will be happy. Reading the comments thus far, the Neovas are the way I think I will go. However, I can still just go for RS2 again on the rear, then go for a full set of Neovas (or R888) later. Having said that, the RS2 are down to 4mm on the front, so may just scrap them and go with the Neovas anyway. Going to be an expensive couple of months.

Chris

[Anonymous]

When comparing R888 to A048, it is also necessary to consider what version was run. Both are available in more than one compound.

That's a very good point: Most of the comparisons I've seen are between the LTS compound 048 (somewhere about M/H) and what I presume are M R888s.

[Steven Velocity]

Many thanks for the replies all. Steven, when you ran the Neova LTS, was it the AD05/06 like this:

Interesting that you rate the RS2 quite close to the T1R in dry grip. I have found the RS2 to need significantly lower pressure than stock to really generate grip. I run 24.5 psi front 29 psi rear and find that once warm they are pretty good. Huge amounts more grip than I have had from T1R on other cars.

When comparing R888 to A048, it is also necessary to consider what version was run. Both are available in more than one compound. Some reckon the 048 to grip harder, some favour the R888. One guy I know putting 489bhp down the front wheels has tried them all (the Kumho V70 as well) and reckons the R888 in medium to the the best so far. He also ran them through last winter and they stayed in one piece, but it is not his daily commuter.

I am after the AD05/06 pattern Yokohamas if I go that direction. If they offer grip as good as the RS2 or better I will be happy. Reading the comments thus far, the Neovas are the way I think I will go. However, I can still just go for RS2 again on the rear, then go for a full set of Neovas (or R888) later. Having said that, the RS2 are down to 4mm on the front, so may just scrap them and go with the Neovas anyway. Going to be an expensive couple of months.

Chris

This would be the one I ran mate. I've got no experience with the other one. Both the TR1 & the RS2 felt to me like they had really sloppy sidewalls, and rolled quite a bit. I have to confess I don't know which compound R888 (or AO48 for that matter) I was on because the shop I bought them at only carried one. Might benefit you to finesse your way into the driver seat of an R888 equipped car to give 'er a go...

[ChrisGB]

This would be the one I ran mate. I've got no experience with the other one. Both the TR1 & the RS2 felt to me like they had really sloppy sidewalls, and rolled quite a bit. I have to confess I don't know which compound R888 (or AO48 for that matter) I was on because the shop I bought them at only carried one. Might benefit you to finesse your way into the driver seat of an R888 equipped car to give 'er a go...

With you on T1-R, being soft in the sidewall and prone to rolling around on the rim. The RS2 is completely different in my experience. The only time I managed to scuff even remotely near the sidewalls (though still not off the main tread area) was when I spun the car about 450 deg on a dry and abrasive track. At the time I was on cold tyres and at 29psi in the rears, so they were not overinflated protecting the edges. Other than that, they seem to have been very stable, give very quick turn in and settle solidly with no wallowing about. Wear has been very even indeed at the pressures I run, so guessing it must be about optimal.

Out of curiosity, what pressures did you run the RS2 at on the MR2? I found that on stock pressures, they felt like they were rolling about, but the centre of the tread got very hot compared with the edges.

Chris

[ChrisGB]

When comparing R888 to A048, it is also necessary to consider what version was run. Both are available in more than one compound.

That's a very good point: Most of the comparisons I've seen are between the LTS compound 048 (somewhere about M/H) and what I presume are M R888s.

Also, I suspect that the LTS version of the A048 has different sidewall stiffness from reading I have been doing over the last day or two.

Chris

[ChrisGB]

I would be a tad wary of using the Neova, AO48, or R888 as a winter tyre, as their respective mfg's advise strongly against using them in snow or cold temps (read: hardened & cracked tyres  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  )

I did wonder about this as I know a couple of people that have used the A048 and R888 over a typical UK winter without issues. Evo magazine recently took their Renault Megane R26R to the Alps and drove above the snow line too. The R26R comes with R888 as standard. I spoke to the Toyo UK race tyre technical guy today for some clarification on the cracking issue. Apparently, the warning was initially issued as a quick response to some tyres becoming damaged in a container in Russia. The tyres at the bottom of the container where apparently cracked where they had been bent by the weight of the frozen tyres above them. Temperature was Russian winter low. Toyo have carried out trials and an investigation and will shortly be recommending that the R888 not be used in temperatures below -10 Deg C (14 Deg F) and that fitting be carried out on warm tyres. Toyo consider that for a UK user, the only potential problem would be the actual fitting process when it is too cold, where sidewalls are deformed a lot when the tyre is being mounted.

In regard to a summer tyre, I tried the R888 as a daily driven summer street tyre, (with a few track days thrown in for good measure) and honestly I'm on the fence about them for this application. They've lasted me about 6000 miles so far, but have heat cycled considerably from being driven everyday on the street, and now have no tread left. Remember the R888 is an R compound tyre, so its outstanding on dry roads, and absolutely brilliant on the track, (in fact it's my track tyre of choice) but it needs a wee bit more time to warm up to operating temps than a trip to the local Tesco would afford. The tyre likes to be driven hard, and doesn't reach its full potential until its has an adequate amount of heat. Also, the R888 is slightly less than stellar in the wet (although completely manageable, I had a damp track day out here and they did ok)  which the the roads there usually are.

I am interested in running them as a dry use street tyre most of the time. How did you find the progressiveness and feel near the limit compared with the Hankook RS2? The Hankooks are a bit difficult to read as you get near the edge and to add to the excitement, they don't make any noise before they let go making them trickier than some to read. Are the Toyos a bit more vocal when the limit of grip is approaching?

As for heat cycling, I asked the tech guy about this. He reckoned they will scrub, then get to optimum after a couple of heat cycles, then drop off a little with a few more cycles, then settle down to a consistent grip level for the rest of their tread life.

Other information I got was that compound temperature is maximum of 85 Deg C (185 Deg F) and that for a car of the MR2's weight, rears would like to be around 32 PSI hot.

Might I suggest to you the R1R as a good summer street tyre. This is what I'll be using next summer as my daily driven street tyre. Cost is slightly more than the T1R but less than the Neova, it can handle track days with no problem, and has excellent characteristics dry & wet. Here is a link to a UK review:


 m http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Toyo/R1R.htm m

There is a guy on here running the R1R and reckons it has soft sidewalls, so not my sort of thing.

I am pulled two ways with this. I tend not to drive the car hard in the wet and often leave it at home if it is raining, so wet performance is not as important as dry. If the R888 are at least as progressive as the RS2, or howl a bit before they let go, I can see these being a viable alternative that may suit my driving style more than the Advan Neovas. The R888 are also cheaper than the Yokohama Neova LTS(although they may wear out a bit faster). I nearly ordered the Yokos today, but now I have spoken to the Toyo tech guy, I am seriously thinking about the R888 and be done with it. Further opinions greatly appreciated.

Chris

[shuttsies]

im using my car everyday nearly for work etc

never driven the car in cold/icy/snowy conditions yet and really dont want to spin.

I dont drive like a twat in these conditions but havnt driven a rwd car before let alone other conditions... i dont want to spin.

tempted by the price of the toyos but markiii says neovos... whcih i would go for before this thread appeared and now i want to know what other people think.

cheers

[ChrisGB]

Im using my car everyday nearly for work etc

never driven the car in cold/icy/snowy conditions yet and really dont want to spin.

I dont drive like a t**t in these conditions but havnt driven a rwd car before let alone other conditions... i dont want to spin.

tempted by the price of the toyos but markiii says neovos... whcih i would go for before this thread appeared and now i want to know what other people think.

cheers

I would say that for your use, the Neovas would be the best choice. New to RWD, you don't want a car that is tricky in the wet, so that takes out the R888. If you don't have quite the budget for the Neovas, the Toyo T1R is a well liked tyre by most on here with nice wet performance and good progressive breakaway. The stock Bridgestone RE040 are good too. I found mine to be nice all round performers.

Going to something more track orientated is not a good idea for the commute. The Hankook RS2 is halfway to a trackday tyre. Lots of grip, but you need to be thinking about heat before you lean on them and in the wet, they are less than easy to read.

Chris

[Steven Velocity]

I am interested in running them as a dry use street tyre most of the time. How did you find the progressiveness and feel near the limit compared with the Hankook RS2? The Hankooks are a bit difficult to read as you get near the edge and to add to the excitement, they don't make any noise before they let go making them trickier than some to read. Are the Toyos a bit more vocal when the limit of grip is approaching?

As for heat cycling, I asked the tech guy about this. He reckoned they will scrub, then get to optimum after a couple of heat cycles, then drop off a little with a few more cycles, then settle down to a consistent grip level for the rest of their tread life.

Other information I got was that compound temperature is maximum of 85 Deg C (185 Deg F) and that for a car of the MR2's weight, rears would like to be around 32 PSI hot.

The RS2 felt a little more 'progressive' in that to me it rolled until it broke, so there was plenty of warning. The R888 are dead silent, but pretty easy to read as they are very consistent when warm. Once you've experienced when they break, you can expect more of the same from then on out.

The Toyo guy is bang on with the grip and the temps IMO. Just through trial & error i found 32 PSI hot to be a good temp. When I 1st tracked them (after driving 200 or 300 street miles) it was like being in a slot racing car, they gripped like mad, waaay more than when I popped my engine pulling over 1.5 G a couple weeks ago. After a few more events ( and a lot more street miles) they started to fall off, and by the time I'd put a few thousand street miles on them (and yes, a few more track days  s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:  ) I was worried that they might be done. But then at the track a couple weeks ago they still stuck much better than any non R compound street tire, but not near what they were that 1st track day. I also noticed they felt more slippy cold, and took a bit longer to heat up properly than when they were newer. That's part of the reason I'm on the fence about using the R888 as a DD tyre. I feel I could have stayed in that uber grip window for longer if I had used them exclusively on the track, and although even cold, they stick better than a street tyre, a lot of potential goes unused and is wasted just shuttling about town.

There is a guy on here running the R1R and reckons it has soft sidewalls, so not my sort of thing.

I am pulled two ways with this. I tend not to drive the car hard in the wet and often leave it at home if it is raining, so wet performance is not as important as dry. If the R888 are at least as progressive as the RS2, or howl a bit before they let go, I can see these being a viable alternative that may suit my driving style more than the Advan Neovas. The R888 are also cheaper than the Yokohama Neova LTS(although they may wear out a bit faster). I nearly ordered the Yokos today, but now I have spoken to the Toyo tech guy, I am seriously thinking about the R888 and be done with it. Further opinions greatly appreciated. Chris

I've haven't run the R1R yet, so I don't have an experienced opinion yet. I would imagine the sidewall is less stiff than the R888 to help facilitate rain grip, similar (but nowhere near to the same extreme) to how the T1R sidewall is mush, but is an excellent rain tyre. Since this will be my street tyre and the R888 my track tyre, I'm personally fine with that if its the case. Although its slightly more expensive, you really might consider two sets of tyres as well. I'm sure you can find another set of rims for cheap (if you don't already have a set) and that way you don't have to compromise for the street or track. If you liked the RS2 they're cheap enough to slap a couple rears on, and then when the dry season (term used very loosely here  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  ) comes you can pick up some fresh rubber for the track, autocross, or even if you're just feeling like a spirited blat, which'll in turn stretch out the life of the street tyres.

SV.

[Steven Velocity]

Im using my car everyday nearly for work etc

never driven the car in cold/icy/snowy conditions yet and really dont want to spin.

I dont drive like a t**t in these conditions but havnt driven a rwd car before let alone other conditions... i dont want to spin.

tempted by the price of the toyos but markiii says neovos... whcih i would go for before this thread appeared and now i want to know what other people think.

cheers

The Neovas are a good tyre, but they're so expensive, and I feel their performance does not justify their price. I vote for the T1R for you shuttsies. Its inexpensive, a dead easy and forgiving tyre to drive on, really good in wet & dry weather, and although its not a race tyre it still performs much better than your average tyre whilst driving aggressively. As mentioned before, lots of the guys here (on the board) like and use them for DD.

[markiii]

Im using my car everyday nearly for work etc

never driven the car in cold/icy/snowy conditions yet and really dont want to spin.

I dont drive like a t**t in these conditions but havnt driven a rwd car before let alone other conditions... i dont want to spin.

tempted by the price of the toyos but markiii says neovos... whcih i would go for before this thread appeared and now i want to know what other people think.

cheers

The Neovas are a good tyre, but they're so expensive, and I feel their performance does not justify their price. I vote for the T1R for you shuttsies. Its inexpensive, a dead easy and forgiving tyre to drive on, really good in wet & dry weather, and although its not a race tyre it still performs much better than your average tyre whilst driving aggressively. As mentioned before, lots of the guys here (on the board) like and use them for DD.

your neovas aren;t our neovas though

the ones I;m talking about are the Elise S1 only ones made for Lotus, and they are in a different league, you can;t get them in teh USA

[ChrisGB]

Many thanks for all the input guys. I am still not 100% sure which way to go, but am leaning heavily toward the R888 and use the car mostly in the dry. And not for pootling down to tescos unless we are in a real hurry for some milk  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:   Speaking to a mate who ran them last winter, he had no issues other than reduced aquaplaning resistance.

Regards the heat cycling, the track sessions tend to get the tyre up to higher temperatures than on road and I suspect this is what causes the tyres to harden more quickly. Plasticiser probably gets cooked out of the tyre. You can literally smell it when tyres are hot. Running the RS2 on road, they did go through a similar process of being excellent at the start of their life and tailed off toward the end. I think that part of this is down to compound hardening, part down to tread wear. As the tread wears down, the rubber moves about less, so makes the tyre harder to heat up. On mine now, the car is very much oversteer balanced but the more you work the rears, the closer to neutral it becomes.

Regards 1.5G, it is time to dry sump or go for an oiler like Accusump I would guess. This may help prevent another expensive blow up when all the oil is stuck up one side of the engine. The Accusump is a lot cheaper than a dry sump setup too.

Again, thanks for all the input, it is much appreciated.

Chris

[markiii]

Chris I run teh a048s (yoko version of the r888 and near as dam it the same tread pattern) all year on teh VX

I'd prefer neovas if they made them in my sizes

but the a048s are fine all weather the only time I wouldn't use them is snow, or standing water

other than that the amount of grip they give even in torrential rain is truly bonkers

[ChrisGB]

Chris I run the a048s (yoko version of the r888 and near as dam it the same tread pattern) all year on the VX

I'd prefer neovas if they made them in my sizes

but the a048s are fine all weather the only time I wouldn't use them is snow, or standing water

other than that the amount of grip they give even in torrential rain is truly bonkers

Hi Mark

Could you qualify why you would prefer the Neovas? I am still wobbling on the fence over this decision at the moment. I like a progressive tyre that allows the car to move about a bit, but on a B road blast, it is also nice to have a tyre that wont move about much, if you see what I mean.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Having tried both tyres as well, it sounds like you'd prefer the Neovas as while they don't have anywhere near the amount of dry grip that the semi-slicks have, they're just so communicative that you really don't care if you're a bit slower as you'll have the car in a four-wheel drift and be in total control  s8) s8)

[markiii]

I never ever managed to exceed teh level of grip available with Neovas unless I was actually trying to, they are that good

now I can say the same thing about the 48s most of the time.

however in real world road conditions teh neovas let me go faster before they break away, (better in the wet, better in teh snow) and heres teh odd one

in teh dry teh ao48s are just so good that you can't decide to play with teh tail, they just stick too well, if you want to provoke teh rear on a048s (granted the vxr chassis helps) you have to be pushing so hard that frankly you don't want to play with teh tail at those kind of speeds


even on track the a048s are quicker no question, but I'm somewhat scared to get to teh point where they let me play with the tail, you just have to be going so quickly

so I suppose in a nutshell

a048 are faster, neovas are more entertaining because the level of feel and progression is so much better, and because your moving at a more realistic pace

[ChrisGB]

Very interesting... still undecided and here are a couple of reasons why:

In favour of the Neovas, they are progressive at the limit and work at big slip angles, so should be a hoot on fast smooth sweeping bends, roundabouts etc. They will be an easy tyre to overdrive. They don't require the driver to be thinking about tyre temperatures. They will be a superior tyre in the wet for sure, with easy to read grip levels and good tolerance to standing water. They will produce very high levels of cornering force.

On the downside for the Neovas, from reading various web resources, they need big slip angles to produce high grip levels, so steering response is not as immediate as a track tyre. They cost an arm and a leg, so I will have to buy an automatic.

On the upside for the R888, they offer extremely high grip levels when warmed up. They produce grip at relatively less angle than the Neovas, so will have a faster steering response. They have very hard sidewalls, so will resist roll even in extreme cornering and also have sharp response to inputs.

On the downside the R888 will be marginal on a wet motorway. Difficult to approach limits on the road with fast breakaway and difficult recovery. They wont last long. They will not give the feedback of an easy going road tyre.

Here is the thing. My favourite driving environment is the fast B road. Here it is difficult to tell which tyre will provide the more rewarding for my driving style. The Neovas will be easier at their limit and present a nice range of controllable power oversteer, but on the narrow lanes, I tend to try and keep it very tidy and not sideways beyond the breakaway point at all. So here the R888 may provide a slightly less interactive drive (I am sure they will still offer a range of workable slip angle before breakaway and this is the zone I like to use on the road anyway) but a more accurate drive, with laser guided instant steering response and bonkers traction once on the throttle out of corners. They will almost definitely provide higher braking levels too which is something else I enjoy. On the big smooth sweepers, the level of grip is possibly too high to enjoy on the road, but again, I would assume that below the point at which they slide, they still offer throttle adjustable handling.

I am thinking that the key difference between the two tyres is in the yaw that they work at. The Neovas being optimised for big yaw angle, the R888 being less inclined to play, but being closer to zero steering angle cornering via the throttle pedal.

My MR2 has a less than subtle chassis setup with double the stock spring rates, bracing and strong damping, so may well not behave the same way as a stock car. Experience on other cars suggests that a stiff setup with soft tyres produces a nicely flowing chassis, which would favour the Neovas. I can see the R888 delivering telepathic steering response and instant settle, with their semi radial construction combined with the stiff and immediate chassis.

Of course I could just go buy a set of the R888 and if I don't like them, Ebay them off and get the Neovas. I have a hankering to try the R888 anyway, before the EU makes them illegal in 2012.

Chris