Handling unstable

Anonymous · December 12, 2004, 22:53

Hi all,
Since changing the rears from balding Dunlop SP Sport 2000's (crap tyre!) to Toyo T1-R's the handling of the car has changed dramatically but for the worse in some respects. There's much better grip by a factor of a thousand but the car is all over the road! It tramlines, rolls, and generally feels quite unstable taking long high speed corners. It was like this before but not even half as bad, probably because the tyres would break-away before the unstableness became too obvious!! I haven't personally checked the tyre pressures yet but I asked the guy to pump them to 31psi. It obviously must be the tyres amplifying the problem but why, and how can I sort it? Those of you using T1-R's - what pressures are you running?
Cheers

Anonymous · December 12, 2004, 23:26

I'm running 32 psi rear at the mo on T1-R's and it feels fine - although I haven't pushed them yet (roads are far too greasy s:shock: :shock: s:shock: )...

Have you got T1-R's on the front too, or a different brand??

If you have different tyres on the front this will un-doubtedly be the cause of your handling issues; mixing tyres front and rear on the '2 is a bit of a no-no and can make the car rather unstable s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

However if this isn't the case then I don't know!

Anonymous · December 13, 2004, 00:18

You sure your tyres are on the correct way??? some garages don't know how to put the types the correct way round. Your could have the correct PSI though if the tyres are the wrong way round and going round a corner at speed in the wet.... Your asking for trouble.

Anonymous · December 13, 2004, 01:06

Quote from: "Mr 2"I'm running 32 psi rear at the mo on T1-R's and it feels fine - although I haven't pushed them yet (roads are far too greasy s:shock: :shock: s:shock: )...

Have you got T1-R's on the front too, or a different brand??

They're BFGoodrich Profiler G's on the front but they were there when I had the Dunlops on the rear too... The Toyo's really put the BFG's to shame.
I have always found that 32psi (paticularly on rears) wears the centre of the tread down at an alarming rate and grip suffers too probably because of contact patch being overinflated!! I have found this to be the case particularly with my S14 200sx and with all types of tyres too. With 30-31psi I always get better grip with a far more progressive breakaway.

I refuse to believe that this poor handling is solely down to mixing tyres front-to-rear because they have always been different.

Anonymous · December 13, 2004, 08:20

Why are you asking the forum for help?

You've answered the problem yourself

I have always found that 32psi (paticularly on rears) wears the centre of the tread down at an alarming rate and grip suffers too probably because of contact patch being overinflated!!

Take a trip to a local quick fit, fitter and nosey at the notice boards on tyre pressure.

If it helps. If you have too much air pressure in the tyres you'll get your current problem. Though if you have too little pressure you'll have another problem......

Hence the reason why a true garage engineer would put 30 PSI in each tyre. Regardless of the tyre type.... Though PLEASE NOTE Your local black cab you see on the streets normally has 60 PSI because for the weight loads that they carry on the weekends.....

I ain't a garage engineer though I've worked in one when I was a LAD... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · December 13, 2004, 09:21

There is a more simple answer...........you have two different brands of tyres on your car!!!

The 2 is VERY sensitive to this.................you MUST have all 4 tyres the same to get the correct habdling characteristics from it.

Forget your tyre pressures. Any issue with that is just amplifying the real problem. Get the fronts changed to the Toyos, give them 300 miles to scrub in and the troubles will be far gone. I have the Toyos all round and they really don't tramline anymore. The STOCK Bridgestones I used to have on it were a mare for that. Now, nothing.

Get thr fronts changed. Pronto. Will make a HUGE difference.........................

Anonymous · December 14, 2004, 13:48

Quote from: "John Woodward"There is a more simple answer...........you have two different brands of tyres on your car!!!

The 2 is VERY sensitive to this.................you MUST have all 4 tyres the same to get the correct habdling characteristics from it.

Forget your tyre pressures. Any issue with that is just amplifying the real problem. Get the fronts changed to the Toyos, give them 300 miles to scrub in and the troubles will be far gone. I have the Toyos all round and they really don't tramline anymore. The STOCK Bridgestones I used to have on it were a mare for that. Now, nothing.

Get thr fronts changed. Pronto. Will make a HUGE difference.........................

Exactly right. You may have gotten lucky with your initial selection of tire mix, but the tramlining is definitely due to the differences between the tire sets. Even putting four crappy tires of the same kind on will be better than a mix of two different good tire sets. Been there...done that.

Hope4Sun · December 14, 2004, 13:53

Sounds like the trye mismatch front and back to me too, had this problem a long time ago and soon swapped the fronts off to match the rears, i nearly ended up off the road and that was on straight duel carraige way.

More money i know, but its worth it for safety and for the handling to be sorted s:)

s:)

Andy

MRMike · December 14, 2004, 14:33

I've just changed my rear tyres to the same Yoko's as the front, and the car handles absolutely awful. Pressures are perfect, its just completely out of balance now that is has a fresh set on the back.

Since removing the Corky anti flex plate its got even worse. It really is horrible to tackle corners in at the moment..

Anonymous · December 14, 2004, 14:38

Quote from: "MRMike"I've just changed my rear tyres to the same Yoko's as the front, and the car handles absolutely awful. Pressures are perfect, its just completely out of balance now that is has a fresh set on the back.

Since removing the Corky anti flex plate its got even worse. It really is horrible to tackle corners in at the moment..

Mike, if you have only just put the new tyres on, it might be down to the fact that the tyres are not scrubbed yet. I was VERY dissapointed with the Toyos when I first fitted them. They were all over the place, no grip, nothing. Then about 500 miles in, started to get sharper, tracked straight and grip level has increased massively. Might be worth waiting a little if they are new on.

I could be talking out my arse though!!! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

MRMike · December 14, 2004, 14:46

I think your right John, though the scrub lines have well and trully worn off now..Accelerating hard through first to second the car loses grip in a straight line on a dry road! It's never ever done that before..it feels well and trully awfull. I can't imagine what it would be like with different makes of tyres/wear front/back.

Annoyingly if it does start to handle better, its only going to be the new owner that benefits!! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

roger · December 14, 2004, 14:47

Quote from: "John Woodward"
Quote from: "MRMike"I've just changed my rear tyres to the same Yoko's as the front, and the car handles absolutely awful. Pressures are perfect, its just completely out of balance now that is has a fresh set on the back. Since removing the Corky anti flex plate its got even worse. It really is horrible to tackle corners in at the moment..

Mike, if you have only just put the new tyres on, it might be down to the fact that the tyres are not scrubbed yet. I was VERY dissapointed with the Toyos when I first fitted them. They were all over the place, no grip, nothing. Then about 500 miles in, started to get sharper, tracked straight and grip level has increased massively. Might be worth waiting a little if they are new on.

I could be talking out my arse though!!! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Mike, let the new owners sort it out s:wink: :wink: s:wink: "Alwite wen I ad er, guv"

roger

roger · December 14, 2004, 14:49

You obviously had the same thoughts as me.

s:lol: :lol: s:lol: roger

Anonymous · December 14, 2004, 16:45

My 2 tramlines and over steers since ive fitted 2 new rears to my 2
im running dunlop sp01 sport on the front and rear and at speed on the motor way you need 2 hands on the steering wheel or you will be off the road, my fiesta handels better than my 2 dose at the minet,

John, i hope you are right about the toyo's cos im off to go and get all 4 change for new toyo, im abit sick cos the front have 8mm and the rear have done about 1500 miles on them. ( I wont my old 2 back ) to how it was before i changed the worn rear tyres s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

roger · December 14, 2004, 17:16

Its funny (if you can call it that).

I've got the stock RE042s, and I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. Handled well, and adding the struts etc made it even better. A little bit of tramlining, but only on roads where you could see the depressions.

Now, all of a sudden (in the last 4 weeks) the front is all over the place. Have to hang onto the steering wheel like grim death, just in case. Pressures are OK (25/32), could it be 3,000 mile wear on Bridgestones? Perhaps they've gone off as they say on F1, but will they come back later?

Now the problem is do I ditch 4 perfectly good tyres before North Weald in February?

As maxum says, loathe to do that with so much tread on them.

I'll have to ponder further.

roger

Anonymous · December 14, 2004, 17:42

maxum, don't take this the wrong way but most Dunlops are shit. Although I've not personally tried the Toyos, I'm sure they'll be better.

For the benefit of everyone else, I've got a Golf MKIV GTI 150 PD. 3 of the original dunlops were changed to Michelins earlier this year, leaving one Dunlop at the N/S rear. Chucked the car into a roundabout with a bit of enthusiasm last week and needed a couple of turns of opposite lock to sort it out. Basically the Michelins have much better grip than the Dunlops - this is particularly apparent in the wet. The roads were greasy at the time. What I think is happening is that the Michelins hang on much harder than the Dunlop - hence the shopping trolley handling whenever negotiating right handers. If tyre combos effect the chassis dynamics of the souffle Golf to such an extent then think what happens with the 2. I mean think about it, just the tyre pressures can make a big difference so different compounds, construction and physical geometry of different tyres is bound to be somewhat noticable.

Don't make life complicated - your tyres are different - this is the first thing to sort. It's easy to dismiss the first obvious reason that is staring you in the face and waste a lot of time assuming that it must be something more complicated when often it isn't. s8)

s8)

mrsmr2 · December 14, 2004, 22:45

Roger, I would put that down to the road conditions. Mine was completely vice free on dry roads earlier this year and pretty grippy in the wet. As soon as December arrived and the roads got greasy I've had constant lack of grip from the front (and the back). I've done 10k on my RE040s, and I expect them to be back to normal when the roads are cleaner.

Still, it's a good time to learn balancing the 2 at sensible speeds e.g. 30-40 on some of the tighter bends.

Regards

Jason

Anonymous · December 15, 2004, 06:46

Roger, it's probably the road. My Toyos have had a lot less grip of late. Think it's the cold, the drit and the damp all combined. Just drive carefully.

Anonymous · December 15, 2004, 09:16

I think it is a combination of both of the things said above to be honest. I also have seen a very marked decline in the performance of the tyre to the extent of I am back to driving like a granny!!! I took an island which I normally enjoy driving around early one morning at a not unreasonable speed and I nearly twitched into the oncoming cars! Was very suprised by that to be honest. The Toyos have performed fantstically since I have had them, but when they are cold or there is the slightest bit of grease on the road, then they are not the best.

IN sopping wet conditions and dry, normal conditions, there is little out there with as much bang for your buck. But I have to say, anything other than those two and they do deteriorate in performance...........

Also, if the Toyos are brand new, you really do have to give them time. Don't use the scrubb lines as indication of them being ready to thrash, cos I found out the hard way that it is no indication!!! Nearly spun the thing. I think they have to get right into the meat of the tread to start performing to the standards we expect. And when they do, they are pretty mighty.......

Stick with them and you will be fine, I am sure, but like you said, shame the new owner is getting the benefit............

roger · December 15, 2004, 10:41

Thanks guys - at least I am not alone, I think I can relax now.

One point for Phil (cos he's local), the worst road for this is Howes Lane past the cop-shop. How does yours react down there?

I appreciate it is not the best maintained road, so that may well exacerbate things.

Jason, I'll leave the "trying out" until February. Short enough time to wait.

roger

filcee · December 17, 2004, 17:27

Don't forget it's also been pretty cold some mornings recently. There's a chance you could be finding black ice too.