Gearbox/clutch problems

[PeteC]

Hi Everyone. Some thoughts and advice please!
I've recently had the gearbox rebuilt by a reputable reconditioner, who removed and replaced the box and fitted a new clutch at the same time. When I picked up the car after the work was completed they noted on the roadtest that the clutch had a slight judder when starting off. I had supplied the clutch (an Exedy 3 part kit).
Now 3 months on it is becoming increasing difficult to select 2nd gear, which gets worse as the box warms up. Before I go back to the people who did the work, I need your expertise to eliminate a few things.
1. Are the gear change cables adjustable? When stationary, the change appears to be working fine, and a visual check indicates no slop in the joints on the top of the box.
2. The other gears select fine, but changing into 2nd gear results in a 'clunk' at best (rather like if you don't use the clutch at all but mismatch the revs). Worse, after about 10 miles engagement of second is met with a gnashing of teeth. Any ideas?
3. The clutch was fine before the new one was fitted - no judder or slip. It seemed like a good idea to fit a new one whilst the box was out of the car. Because I supplied the clutch they have absolved any responsibility for a faulty clutch unit, so I have to pay for the clutch to be taken out and replaced and send it back to Exedy for examination. Are Exedy clutches prone to the occasional faulty unit?
4. Given there were no problems with the clutch before the gearbox rebuild and in my experience a new clutch always works better than an old one, could it be that the problem with 2nd gear and the clutch judder are related in some way.

Any thoughts would be welcome!!!

[Carolyn]

Hi Pete,
Firstly; the second gear problem that gets worse as the box warms up, is almost certainly a synchromesh problem.   The fact that it's fine when the box is not spinning is the giveaway. The cables are not adjustable.  Try double de-clutching. i.e.; shift into neutral, let the clutch out, clutch in, shift into second (which is how one shifts an old non-synchro gearbox).  If that works better it's definitely a synchromesh problem, which means the gearbox rebuild is no good.

Clutch judder can either be a duff clutch (happens to the best occasionally) OR contamination to the clutch plate or flywheel, or the flywheel was not properly de-glazed.

I would concentrate the complaint on the gearbox issue - which means it has to come out at the gearbox service's expense and be repaired again.  The clutch issue is then moot, except that you may have to allow them to put the clutch of their choice in (which would be wise as they will have no excuse if it judders again).

The clutch manufacturer is reputable, the gearbox service may, or may not be,  If they ARE reputable they will accept responsibility for the synchro issue.

[jonbill]

+1.

[PeteC]

Thanks  Carolyn and jonbill for your replies
I do double declutch - I learnt to do it racing umpteen years ago and now can't not do it! Pity they don't teach learners to do it as their progress along the road would be a lot less jerky.
By double declutching it does go into 2nd gear more easily, but it feels as if the selector lever is holding on to the adjacent gear for slightly too long and then as it baulks engaging second gear and either clunks in (sounds like a WRC car!) or makes the gnashing of teeth noise (like a learner!) which I have always understood is the synchro cones rather than the gears themselves. Does this make sense?

[ChrisGB]

What you are describing with it feeling like it's holding onto the gear sounds like classic clutch drag to me. Warped clutch plate could be the issue.

[jonbill]

What you are describing with it feeling like it's holding onto the gear sounds like classic clutch drag to me. Warped clutch plate could be the issue.

Could that be tested by seeing if the car moves in gear even with the clutch in?

[Jacobsprky]

maybe clutch slave/master or pressure issue?

[ChrisGB]

What you are describing with it feeling like it's holding onto the gear sounds like classic clutch drag to me. Warped clutch plate could be the issue.

Could that be tested by seeing if the car moves in gear even with the clutch in?

It can drag just enough to make the box play up. If this is happening, just putting it into first will often be a challenge. Clutch hydraulics can cause the same problem. I've seen a clutch that was flat when cold and said once warm. I've also seen clutch hydraulic issue that was ambient temperature related.

[Carolyn]

Is the problem ONLY in second gear?

Both my cars will change up through the gears smoothly (under gentle driving conditions) without using the clutch.  Will yours?

[lamcote]

Yes, that seems to be critical, if it's only happening in 2nd gear and everything else is fine, surely that suggests Carolyn is on the right lines? If it was clutch plate/hydraulics there would presumably be issues with other gears too?

[PeteC]

Following all the questions I have done further checks this morning.
The problem only affects 2nd gear. It gets more difficult to engage 2nd as the revs increase. The 'clunk' into gear starts at about 2500rpm (2nd gear speed) and beyond that is always there when double de-clutching. Without double de-clutching the clunk becomes the 'gnashing of gears' from about 3500 rpm upwards. If 2nd gear is missed out and changes made straight from 1st to 3rd or 3rd to 1st, the changes are fine.
It changes gear fine 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th without using the clutch but not 1st to 2nd. It won't go into 2nd gear whatever the speed until the car becomes almost stationary.
The clutch isn't dragging and the car doesn't creep forward with the clutch in. The bite point is about half way up the pedal travel.
Selecting 1st gear is not a problem, either stationary or on the move.
Clutch hydraulics worked fine before the work was done. The fluid level is correct and the fluid is clean.
The is no problem selecting any gear when stationary with the engine switched off or when running at tickover.

Hope this helps!
Pete

[ChrisGB]

Sounds like 2nd gear synchro then.

[Carolyn]

So we are agreed.  Go back to the gearbox builder and major on the synchro issue (using the arguments laid out on this thread).  The box must come out at their expense.  Then you'll have to eat one clutch.  Make SURE they de-glaze the flywheel.

[PeteC]

On going report!!!
The 2nd gear synchro has just been replaced under the reconditioners warranty and the clutch replaced, as this with the judder it had was blamed for the 2nd gear synchro problem. However replacing the clutch hasn't got rid of the judder. The flywheel can't just be re-faced as this will change the height of the clutch face and plate in relation to the mounting face for the cover assembly. I've changed loads of clutches myself over the years and just rub over the friction surface of the flywheel with 120 wet & dry lubricated with brake cleaner. Is this enough to de-glaze in this case?

The alternative is a new flywheel, which Eurocar Parts can supply for about £170 including their weekend offer. It is described as a 'VM Flywheel' where VM stands for Vehicle Manufacturer and the product code is Product Code: 33682028J. Has anyone used one of these flywheels? if so comments please!

The Exedy clutch fitted in January is (I'm told) completely destroyed  - in 1200 miles! The judder got worse as those miles went by and it showed no sign of 'bedding in'. The car is still with the gearbox people and they seem to have run out of ideas about the clutch judder other than replace the flywheel. Any ideas folks?

Incidentally, they claim to have replaced the 2nd gear synchro with the box in-situ. Is this possible?
Cheers
Pete

[smarty72]

Can't help with the technical side of things.  But that flywheel is £14 cheaper at 'carparts4less' using their 'payday' discount code.

[Carolyn]

"Incidentally, they claim to have replaced the 2nd gear synchro with the box in-situ. Is this possible?".

Can't see how as the box has to be dismantled to do it.  

Sounds very fishy to me.

[PeteC]

Hi folks
My gearbox problems continue to bug me! In summary, 2nd gear sychro was replaced after about 1000 miles from the box being rebuilt and the clutch and flywheel were replaced at the same time. Now 1600 miles later, all 5 synchros are shot, the box is noisy and it jumps out of 1st gear. Car is back with the transmission re-conditioners, and they are completely baffled, so are offering to refund my money as they cannot be sure any more work the box will make it last any longer than it has to date.
Any ideas what else might be influencing the problem?
Pete

[Carolyn]

So sorry to hear of these woes.  

Sounds like cases and bearings are buggered.  As a gearbox 'specialist', they really should not be 'baffled'.

Moving forward, I would suggest getting the refund.  Buying a used good gearbox from one of our affiliated beakers, and having a different mechanic install it.

[PeteC]

Dean at RutlandMR2 has a low mileage one.
Pete

[Carolyn]

Dean is one of the good guys.  

I got an excellent one from him for a member about a year ago.  Still going as it should.

[PeteC]

This saga continues and the gearbox from Dean was very noisy. Dean was great and he made me a refund so still one of the good guys!
However I've decided enough is enough and I can't continue to throw money at this, so I have decided it is time to part company. The car is way to good to just scrap.

[Call the midlife!]

I think you'll have to start a proper for sale thread with details and price, as per the rules, otherwise you'll get moderated by @delhusdand .


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[delhusband]

I think you'll have to start a proper for sale thread with details and price, as per the rules, otherwise you'll get moderated by @delhusband .

I've been caught napping
Pete, really sorry to hear about the car. I've just pm'd you, please let me know if I can be of any assistance in helping you put up a sales thread.
As @Call the midlife! rightly points out, we'd ask that a sales thread is put up, and all correspondence be open between parties on that thread until sale is agreed

[PeteC]

I have now advertised it under 'Vehicles for Sale'.
Pete