1zz sump for 2zz conversion

[michaelb]

Do you use the sump from the 1zz for the 2zz conversion?

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[michaelb]

Or is that only really if you want to use the 2zz for the track?

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[shnazzle]

The defacto standard is to put the 1zz sump because its baffled. Which is off because the Toyota design documentation for the 2zz states that they purposely removed the baffling to prevent oil starvation up to 1g corners

[michaelb]

Does the 1zz sump bolt straight on or does it need fettling?

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[michaelb]

Also by your previous statement, which is correct? Lol to use the 1zz or to keep the 2zz as Toyota says it's better?

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[Carolyn]

The 1zz isn't so much 'baffled' as it has what is known as a 'windage tray'.  This is there to limit the effect of piston movement on the oil in the pan.

For some reason, possibly the different stroke and rpm of the 2zz, Toyota found it counter-productive in the 2zz.

I do know that my local super tig-welder does loads of sumps for a local Lotus shop by welding in gated baffles and windage trays over the top of them.  These go into 2zz engines in Elises.

The two sumps are identical in terms of bolt pattern.

Sump 'windage' is a complicated issue and it has quite an effect on BHP output at high rpm.

Yer takes yer pic, I reckon....

[michaelb]

Hmmm my 2zz sump is in good condition. It was clearly designed for the car, so.I think I'll stick with it. I still have my 1zz if I feel the need to change or I could purchase a specialised one at a later date. I'm not intending on racing it, so I'd hope either should work fine for normal, if not enthusiastic driving

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[GazMav]

I kept the 2zz sump on mine, had the car on the track and it's been fine.

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[james_ly]

Sump 'windage' is a complicated issue and it has quite an effect on BHP output at high rpm.

Can you explain why? Making the oil pump work harder or something?

[Carolyn]

Back pressure underneath the pistons.

[Dev]

Sump 'windage' is a complicated issue and it has quite an effect on BHP output at high rpm.

Can you explain why? Making the oil pump work harder or something?

From my understanding it is the crank working harder by having the oil cling to it. This is especially apparent during high rpms as it can rob power.  If you read the 2ZZ white paper they claim they added the windage tray and did not use a baffle in the pan for high speed operation. The windage tray interferes with the oil that is being whipped and directs it back into the sump where  it is needed. 
Also the white paper mentions the oil returning to the sump as quick as possible.
I believe the windage tray that is part of the 1ZZ pan may interfere with this operation in a dynamic fashion and could potentially cause starvation. 

Also I found out that the 1ZZ pan is not the same as a 2ZZ pan without the baffle. The stampings are different. The clearance from the oil pickup tube to the bottom of the pan is also different.  I would trust the engineers unless it can be proven otherwise. 

[shnazzle]

Sump 'windage' is a complicated issue and it has quite an effect on BHP output at high rpm.

Can you explain why? Making the oil pump work harder or something?

From my understanding it is the crank working harder by having the oil cling to it. This is especially apparent during high rpms as it can rob power.  If you read the 2ZZ white paper they claim they added the windage tray and did not use a baffle in the pan for high speed operation. The windage tray interferes with the oil that is being whipped and directs it back into the sump where  it is needed. 
Also the white paper mentions the oil returning to the sump as quick as possible.
I believe the windage tray that is part of the 1ZZ pan may interfere with this operation in a dynamic fashion and could potentially cause starvation. 

Also I found out that the 1ZZ pan is not the same as a 2ZZ pan without the baffle. The stampings are different. The clearance from the oil pickup tube to the bottom of the pan is also different.  I would trust the engineers unless it can be proven otherwise.

Exactly my thoughts after I read that same whitepaper.
They have put some serious thought into changing that sump, so it seems daft to then slap the "older model" back on and think it's better. It SEEMS daft perhaps. Maybe it isn't?

Hmm....

[Dev]

Sump 'windage' is a complicated issue and it has quite an effect on BHP output at high rpm.

Can you explain why? Making the oil pump work harder or something?

From my understanding it is the crank working harder by having the oil cling to it. This is especially apparent during high rpms as it can rob power.  If you read the 2ZZ white paper they claim they added the windage tray and did not use a baffle in the pan for high speed operation. The windage tray interferes with the oil that is being whipped and directs it back into the sump where  it is needed. 
Also the white paper mentions the oil returning to the sump as quick as possible.
I believe the windage tray that is part of the 1ZZ pan may interfere with this operation in a dynamic fashion and could potentially cause starvation. 

Also I found out that the 1ZZ pan is not the same as a 2ZZ pan without the baffle. The stampings are different. The clearance from the oil pickup tube to the bottom of the pan is also different.  I would trust the engineers unless it can be proven otherwise.

Exactly my thoughts after I read that same whitepaper.
They have put some serious thought into changing that sump, so it seems daft to then slap the "older model" back on and think it's better. It SEEMS daft perhaps. Maybe it isn't?

Hmm....

Actually I brought this up on Spyderchat two years ago and I was called out  that I or anyone else does not know what Toyota intended so I quoted the  white paper and there were plenty that were left a little speechless but ended up twisting the words  to mean something else entirely to make the 1ZZ pan work into their logic.  The white paper is specific and once I showed evidence of the pans being different and various other examples of windage trays used on other cars, the preponderance of the evidence should have been enough to cast doubt that you could potentially  cause harm but unfortunately mental gymnastics tends to be favored because looking at something rather than understanding  the complexities of oil sump design seems to be the norm.

The only fault Toyota made  for the  logically inept  is not stating you shouldn't use the 1ZZ pan for a 2ZZ.

Having said that if you race any Spyder you should have an upgraded oil pan. If you drive on the street the stock oil pan is more than sufficient unless you run very sticky tires.  For my needs I run a crank scraper and a lower pickup tube which also has directional baffles that  prevents oil loading up on bays 3 and 4 and directs oil back into the sump. Its cheap insurance and I don't want an aluminum pan that can get damaged on the street.

[shnazzle]

Yeah but that's no fair @Dev, you're a wizard

Us mortals know no more than what the masses tell us.

I for one (if I ever need to) will be following your advice

[Dev]

Yeah but that's no fair @Dev, you're a wizard

Us mortals know no more than what the masses tell us.

I for one (if I ever need to) will be following your advice

Im no such thing but thanks for the complementary words. Im just a guy trying to sort though this like everyone else. What I found most reassuring and why I commented is for admiration that you guys have already cast doubt based on logical reasoning from the literature and are willing to entertain caution especially when its something that none of us fully understand. 
The 1ZZ pan was made in large abundance compared to the 2ZZ pan. If the 1ZZ pan had any kind of advantage or no change in the sump they would have used it. They fact that Toyota  went though the trouble and expense of making a new stamping is another major clue that should not be overlooked.

[Dougster7]

I've tracked my 2zz a good few times for up to 2hrs at a time non stop with the 1zz sump (Rogue conversion and recommendation) and had no adverse consequences so far (2 1/2 years later) Decent oil with regular changes.... maybe there's not that much difference in the two if both have success stories?


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[Carolyn]

I happen to have both sumps in my workshop.

I measured their dimensions.  They are both 140 mm deep (depending on the exact spot you measure) and they are identical except for the internals.  It's weird that upside down they look absolutely identical but the extra tin-work makes them different to the eye when they are the other way up.

I'm not saying that this cancels Dev's point that Toyota had their reasons for using a differing sump on the 2ZZ.  With the higher RPM of the 2ZZ, the 'windage' factors will be very different.

I was just curious to see if the stampings were, indeed, different.  As far as I can tell, they aren't.

BTW, I run lowered scoop and an extra baffle in my 1ZZs.

There you go!

[james_ly]

So in summary, 1zz sump on 2zz is a cheap way to not blow up your engine, but there may be power compromises? And 2zz sump gives you the power, but you'll blow the engine on a track. Ultimate solution is a custom sump that gives you best of both worlds (Eliseparts? $$$)

[shnazzle]

Well that's what's under dispute.
The 2zz sump is specifically designed to cope with g-forces and the increased crank speed.
So, by that logic the 2zz sump on a 2zz should make it safer.

I don't really know why people started putting the 1zz sumps on

[1979scotte]

Well that's what's under dispute.
The 2zz sump is specifically designed to cope with g-forces and the increased crank speed.
So, by that logic the 2zz sump on a 2zz should make it safer.

I don't really know why people started putting the 1zz sumps on

Because they think they're baffled and will save them at high G?

[shnazzle]

Well that's what's under dispute.
The 2zz sump is specifically designed to cope with g-forces and the increased crank speed.
So, by that logic the 2zz sump on a 2zz should make it safer.

I don't really know why people started putting the 1zz sumps on

Because they think they're baffled and will save them at high G?

Which was my understanding, but one has to wonder why Toyota removed the baffles specifically to prevent that.
I don't think this one is going to get an answer

[1979scotte]

Well that's what's under dispute.
The 2zz sump is specifically designed to cope with g-forces and the increased crank speed.
So, by that logic the 2zz sump on a 2zz should make it safer.

I don't really know why people started putting the 1zz sumps on

Because they think they're baffled and will save them at high G?

Which was my understanding, but one has to wonder why Toyota removed the baffles specifically to prevent that.
I don't think this one is going to get an answer

Perhaps the answer is to fit the very expensive Elise parts sump.

[Carolyn]

The 1ZZ sump isn't really baffled.  It has a windage tray with a small single baffle underneath.  As much of he oil sits above the tray, that little baffle don't do much.

Truly 'baffled' sumps have gates or cylinders surrounding the oil pick-up.

Yes the 2ZZ revs higher, has a shorter stroke and bigger crank throw so the windage will be different.  Perhaps Toyota (Yamaha) tried a 2ZZ without the tray and found it made more power, so they took it out.

Before anyone says Toyota wouldn't come up with such a 'half' solution (as opposed to a gated sump) remember the piston oil holes!!

I'd also suggest that 'doing track days' and hard racing are very different.  What works for one may not work for the other.

Baffled and gated sumps with wipers and extra capacity are the norm for racing (unless you go for the ultimate racer solution, which is a dry sump).

Very few of us really drive hard enough to notice a difference in 'real life'.

[shnazzle]

The 1ZZ sump isn't really baffled.  It has a windage tray with a small single baffle underneath.  As much of he oil sits above the tray, that little baffle don't do much.

Truly 'baffled' sumps have gates or cylinders surrounding the oil pick-up.

Yes the 2ZZ revs higher, has a shorter stroke and bigger crank throw so the windage will be different.  Perhaps Toyota (Yamaha) tried a 2ZZ without the tray and found it made more power, so they took it out.

Before anyone says Toyota wouldn't come up with such a 'half' solution (as opposed to a gated sump) remember the piston oil holes!!

I'd also suggest that 'doing track days' and hard racing are very different.  What works for one may not work for the other.

Baffled and gated sumps with wipers and extra capacity are the norm for racing (unless you go for the ultimate racer solution, which is a dry sump).

Very few of us really drive hard enough to notice a difference in 'real life'.

So many truths in here.... So. Many

[Call the midlife!]

I can't decide if the Eliseparts sump I've got on my wish list is overkill/just being flash and if I should just replace the old one with a new, standard 1zz one. There's nothing necessarily wrong with the current one but it's 18 years old.


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