Saving the environment.

[scm2004red]

Any discussion concerning the future of the motor car now always points to everything becoming electric, possibly some of you are doing your bit already by driving a Prius or similar.

What then happens to our other cars, the MR2, a classic Ferrari, when the motoring world as we know it is all electric?

If you are into classics, Practical Classics this month are doing a series of tests/comparisons on a number of converted classics ranging from Ferrari 308 to 2CV, conversion costs ranging from £15-25K, range from 40 to 140 miles, performance ranging from exceptional to in keeping with the original.

For me, the pleasure of owning a classic, or future classic is the whole thing, noise, maintaining or improving the engine and so on, running a silent Aston Martin or BSA Gold Star would be horrifying.

Converting something like the MR2 would be nigh on impossible due to lack of space for all of the batteries required, so is it's future in jeopardy?

[Carolyn]

My best guess is that internal combustion 'classics' will always have a place.  The vast majority of vehicles will be electric, as the vast majority of vehicle users aren't into 'classics' anyway.

That would leave a small enough number remaining so as to be of little or no consequence to the environment. Classics will be what they've always been - an expensive hobby for a few nutters like us.

At least, I hope so.

[1979scotte]

My best guess is that internal combustion 'classics' will always have a place.  The vast majority of vehicles will be electric, as the vast majority of vehicle users aren't into 'classics' anyway.

That would leave a small enough number remaining so as to be of little or no consequence to the environment. Classics will be what they've always been - an expensive hobby for a few nutters like us.

At least, I hope so.

I agree
What sort of world it would be if you never got to hear the roar of a straight six the rumble of a v8 or the absolute joy of 12 cylinder engines.

[Jimbo]

People still ride horse, and they're still allowed on the road!

[scm2004red]

..but like cows, their emissions are unfriendly...

[ucb]

I think that most cars and infrastructure will be zero local emissions-based. This approach will take off through the current tax incentives, and once critical mass is reached and tax is applied again, the current approach for the majority of car purchases of lease/PCP will propagate and sustain it. Legislation will sort out the rest.
For current ICE cars, I can only hope that the UK with its plethora of specialist and small car manufacturers is well suited to maintaining 'classics' but that's going to depend on profitability and desirability.
The positives for the MR2 are that there are a reasonable number about, and the Japanese scene may mean parts are available internationally. They are currently very cheap so could still see large numbers scrapped in the coming decade.
For a tiny manufacturer, Lotus has a large number of specialist and aftermarket support which I feel the MR2 lacks (at least in terms of production numbers).

[Jimbo]

For a tiny manufacturer, Lotus has a large number of specialist and aftermarket support which I feel the MR2 lacks (at least in terms of production numbers).

The amount people are willing to spend on maintaining a car is generally proportional to the value. Coming from the budget end of the classic Porsche scene it was daft to spend £5k on respraying a 924 when the final car value at best was £5k, but for a £30k 911 is makes more sense. Now prices might have doubled on both of those values.

If you're making bespoke/re-manufactured parts then you either need a huge market or high margins to sustain it. Again same with becoming a service specialist. Unless you're the only one in the country and the car needs specialist knowledge.

[Joesson]

..but like cows, their emissions are unfriendly...

Not totally if you are a rose grower.
I remember when kids were sent out with a bucket, and a shovel if they were lucky , after the milkman's or green grocer's horse had passed by.
Coal was similarly delivered at one time as was beer from the brewery to local pubs. This stoped relatively recently in London and other Cities.
One brewer started the service again during the recent situation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/5327540.stm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/15/samuel-smith-brewery-uses-horse-and-cart-to-deliver-beer-to-homes-during-lockdown

[Joesson]

Owning a car, at one time, was an aspiration, not so many families had one. Today many families have more than one. Such is progress.
But, it would seem that this one time luxury item, now a tool for getting to work to earn the money to pay for it is generating unthought of and unwanted side effects.
During the day, in normal times, our towns and cities are jammed with slow moving vehicles. At night those vehicles are often parked on the street, not everyone has an off-road parking spot. (NB I believe this is a requirement in at least one Asian country).
So, if and when these oil driven vehicles are replaced with Electric powered vehicles where and how will they be recharged. Not outside the owners house, even if he/ she is fortunate enough to have a space there.
To my mind it is a chicken and egg situation, what comes first?  We have electric vehicles, with limited range, we do not have the infra structure to recharge them.
I believe this is work in progress, not so long ago  a "British" car maker invested £M's in a new engine production plant, more recently that same manufacturer announced that they would start to offer only electric vehicles.
Lots of ends to join up yet I think. Legislation, as @ucb suggests, will likely gradually reduce the desirability of owning an oil fuelled vehicle but then again, 10 years ago I bought a new diesel car, because the fuel efficiency and taxation £20 pa meant I would be foolish not to.
Time changes many things.

[105e]

And as we all know (apart from the decision makers) it wont save the environment..

[Dev]

The pie in the sky thinking is going to put the energy grids in jeopardy. This is what happened to Texas.
Without the proper infrastructure planing or advancing technology into graphene battery tech they are going to impoverish humanity with rolling blackouts or rationing of power. 

In my country there are incentives for hybrids and electric cars which are fine but they now have proposals to tax per mile carbon producing cars. They are not going to give any quarter for the vintage aficionados that want to keep these older cars longer and the rest of the world we be on a Japanese model of making it expensive to own older cars. Maybe they will have electric conversions but I see a world where they will have buy backs that goes to buying a new electric cars. 
When they go full tilt don't expect something like a Tesla D or some sporty electric car, they will make sure it will be slow to get the most out of any wasted power consumption for range so it doesn't tax the grid.
In order to build the infrastructure it is an enormous undertaking financially and I think they know this but what they will do first is demonize anything that uses more resources including red meat.

Enjoy what you have for now until the public at large are radicalized to look at you with disgust for harming the environment.

[1979scotte]

The pie in the sky thinking is going to put the energy grids in jeopardy. This is what happened to Texas.
Without the proper infrastructure planing or advancing technology into graphene battery tech they are going to impoverish humanity with rolling blackouts or rationing of power. 

In my country there are incentives for hybrids and electric cars which are fine but they now have proposals to tax per mile carbon producing cars. They are not going to give any quarter for the vintage aficionados that want to keep these older cars longer and the rest of the world we be on a Japanese model of making it expensive to own older cars. Maybe they will have electric conversions but I see a world where they will have buy backs that goes to buying a new electric cars. 
When they go full tilt don't expect something like a Tesla D or some sporty electric car, they will make sure it will be slow to get the most out of any wasted power consumption for range so it doesn't tax the grid.
In order to build the infrastructure it is an enormous undertaking financially and I think they know this but what they will do first is demonize anything that uses more resources including red meat.

Enjoy what you have for now until the public at large are radicalized to look at you with disgust for harming the environment.

Perhaps it's the correct attitude.
Perhaps it's what is needed.
I don't know I'm no expert.
What I do know is that if China, USA, Russia, India and Japan don't get in on the act it won't matter.

We've all got to pull together.

[Petrus]

What sort of world it would be if you never got to hear the roar of a straight six the rumble of a v8 or the absolute joy of 12 cylinder engines.

Ah well, you wíll get a cool optional sound track of those engines piped in through the hifi entertainment kit.

[Dev]

The pie in the sky thinking is going to put the energy grids in jeopardy. This is what happened to Texas.
Without the proper infrastructure planing or advancing technology into graphene battery tech they are going to impoverish humanity with rolling blackouts or rationing of power. 

In my country there are incentives for hybrids and electric cars which are fine but they now have proposals to tax per mile carbon producing cars. They are not going to give any quarter for the vintage aficionados that want to keep these older cars longer and the rest of the world we be on a Japanese model of making it expensive to own older cars. Maybe they will have electric conversions but I see a world where they will have buy backs that goes to buying a new electric cars. 
When they go full tilt don't expect something like a Tesla D or some sporty electric car, they will make sure it will be slow to get the most out of any wasted power consumption for range so it doesn't tax the grid.
In order to build the infrastructure it is an enormous undertaking financially and I think they know this but what they will do first is demonize anything that uses more resources including red meat.

Enjoy what you have for now until the public at large are radicalized to look at you with disgust for harming the environment.

Perhaps it's the correct attitude.
Perhaps it's what is needed.
I don't know I'm no expert.
What I do know is that if China, USA, Russia, India and Japan don't get in on the act it won't matter.

We've all got to pull together.

It would be nihilistic suicide. Im all for clean power and there should have been a Manhattan  like project where all of our institution devoted to finding a solution but they are not doing that. They seem to have all the answers that never come to pass like peak oil, global cooling, global warming and so forth but they seem to keep calling  it something else every 20 years saying we are on borrowed time and when it doesn't come they keep moving the goal posts. 
 What they want to do is tax and cut off resources. Set up commodity markets for carbon credits to be traded like derivatives so the wealthy get rich. India, China and most of Africa will never commit simply because it would impoverish the poor and cause world wide famine.
 
 Oil and what is derived from it is not just for fuel its also in everything we make from all kinds of plastic and other materials that sustain the modern world. Without a plan it will cause suffering and death for those people who have moved to what was once inhibitable areas. Many places in the worlds infrastructure is dependent on fossil fuel to move life saving goods and services.

 We can slice it up a million ways but its really not about all of these measure, its about population control for sustainable living.  That lady with the baby car seat in her hybrid is far more dangerous to the earth than the guy with the Hummer.

[105e]

Yes population levels are the issue that will be the problem,  more people mean more of everything is needed, and what when there is not enough of whatever to go around..

[1979scotte]

What sort of world it would be if you never got to hear the roar of a straight six the rumble of a v8 or the absolute joy of 12 cylinder engines.

Ah well, you wíll get a cool optional sound track of those engines piped in through the hifi entertainment kit.

I f ing hate that.

[Joesson]

Just maybe the pandemic will focus some minds that matter. We were caught with our trousers around our ankles with that,  there was some talk of a potential pandemic but seemingly little or no preparation.
Hopefully science has now found a way to ease the immediate and will necessarily be an on going process in future.
But the root cause of the problems that affect people as @ Dev suggests is the ever increasing number of us.

[Ardent]

But the root cause of the problems that affect people as @ Dev suggests is the ever increasing number of us.

Fear not, that is being addressed.

[paulj]

The UK plans are to stop ICE cars in 2035, with a 15 year average life that means most are off the road at 2050.  Thats our Net Zero date.  "Net" is important as it offers some wriggle room.  I'd hate us to lose history through a lack of petrol, or even coal for vintage locos and traction engines. (dont worry i am not a steam fan!)

By 2050 i might have a different view, old age might have stopped me getting into an MR2 elegantly anyway but future generations should still be able to embrace our "old" transport solutions as hobbies.

Early petrol sales were from the hardware store -perhaps the future is "two gallons of unleaded and a 10mm socket please"

[Petrus]

I have a cunning plan...
I have three lady friends. All three buy lottery tickets and if they win a big one will buy me a Yaris GR.
One to drive daily, two to store for later use. That will see me over 

[Beachbum957]

What sort of world it would be if you never got to hear the roar of a straight six the rumble of a v8 or the absolute joy of 12 cylinder engines.

Ah well, you wíll get a cool optional sound track of those engines piped in through the hifi entertainment kit.

I f ing hate that.

Some cars already have artificial engine sounds. VW soundaktor, Ford Active Noise Control, BMW Active Sound Design, and others.  Very annoying.  Most countries require warning sound generators for electric cars.

[Petrus]

Most countries require warning sound generators for electric cars.

Below 30 or 50 km/h so pedestrians can hear them coming.

[Ardent]

Never quite know whether to laugh or cry.

There is a wind turbine near me. Huge thing. Can be seen for miles.
We had some wind this week. 14 - 20. As I drove past, guess what was it doing. Correct. Nothing. Completely static.
No doubt consuming power to either keep it static or run the systems at least.

As Terry Wogan used to say. Is it me?

Unlike my 158,500 mile 16 year old planet saving hybrid. (on which everything still works.) As it was on a decline past the static turbine, the RX was generating more KW than the turbine and not burning any juice.
Better to extend the life of what we have than dig up, process and manufacture something new. Just a thought.
One caveat. No money in that. Silly me.

[Dev]

Unlike my 158,500 mile 16 year old planet saving hybrid. (on which everything still works.) As it was on a decline past the static turbine, the RX was generating more KW than the turbine and not burning any juice.
Better to extend the life of what we have than dig up, process and manufacture something new. Just a thought.
One caveat. No money in that. Silly me.

Whenever I get into a debate with a person who wants to be a green vegan I use this argument and the population one. It throws them into  a cognitive dissonance loop they cant get out of.

 People who are so called environmentally enlightened because they read authoritative talking points are some of the most unwitting hypocrites damaging the environment.  They don't understand the concept of conservation because it will never be brought up by people that preaches their dogmatic extreme world view.

 There is a lot more green in repurposing quality engineering products that has serviceable parts. Keeping things longer with less conspicuous consumption is far more green than manufacturing new cheap items that end up as litter or there is very little return in savings over the period of ownership by buying the new part. When they talk about how their country is not green enough they don't realize they offset all of this polluting carbon from buying products made in Asian countries with a slave labor workforce that don't care about being held to the same standard. They are the same people that have to have the latest iPhone or MacBook. They also need to buy the latest hybrid car not realizing the implications of toxic battery disposal.

 The world would be filled with far less pollution and greenhouse emissions  if they made quality products that are reliable and serviceable that can be retrofitting with efficiency in mind. They would rather tell you to take a cold shower and other extreme measures that are not sustainable.
 The last I read those wind turbines have some negative environmental consequences that was not previously known. 

[Petrus]

The last I read those wind turbines have some negative environmental consequences that was not previously known. 

Their combined efect adds up to the earthwinds changing the rotational speed of the crust with the iron core lagging, affecting the magnetic field leading to the sun changing the earth into a giant microwave zapping our brains over time.
More directly they clobber the brains of passing birds...