the relativity of safe

[Petrus]

The glove box sticker:


You cannot view this attachment.



But then it is not air but rocket fuel with incendiary device 

Makes an adults only of the car though. Cool!!

[Alex Knight]

@Petrus please stop this, it's bordering on spam with intent to misinform.  Airbags save lives, this is a fact.

[Dev]

I was saved twice by air bags. They really do reduce head trauma and they continue to get better particularly from the first ones that burn the face.

[Petrus]

@Petrus please stop this, it's bordering on spam with intent to misinform.  Airbags save lives, this is a fact.

The decal is real.
The ´air´ ís rocket fuel ignited by an incendiary device.
All facts too.

And yes using the word ´air´ is intent to misimform.

[Joesson]

I have a friend who worked at a French Motor Co. then at Warwick University in conjunction with the Motor Industry, worked on the Dyson car project and is now involved with E taxis all in the development of such safety systems.
I could ask him, but that would have no readily verifiable authenticity, but a search on the www gives many results for the explanation of air bag deployment, amongst them are the following:

The chemical at the heart of the air bag reaction is called sodium azide, or NaN3. CRASHES trip sensors in cars that send an electric signal to an ignitor. The heat generated causes sodium azide to decompose into sodium metal and nitrogen gas, which inflates the car's air bags.25 Oct 1999
www.scientificamerican.com › article

Why is nitrogen gas used in airbags? Sensors in the front of a vehicle detect a collision sending an electrical signal to a canister that contains sodium azide detonating a small amount of an igniter compound. The heat from the ignition causes nitrogen gas to generate, fully inflating the airbag in .
www.laboratory-supply.net › blog

During a crash, the vehicle's crash sensors provide crucial information to the airbag electronic controller unit (ECU), including collision type, angle, and severity of impact. Using this information, the airbag ECU's crash algorithm determines if the crash event meets the criteria for deployment and triggers various firing circuits to deploy one or more airbag modules within the vehicle. Working as a supplemental restraint system to the vehicle's seat-belt systems, airbag module deployments are triggered through a pyrotechnic process that is designed to be used once. Newer side-impact airbag modules consist of compressed-air cylinders that are triggered in the event of a side-on vehicle impact.
Wikipedia


San Diego Earth Times in August 2000 published:
Sodium azide (NaN3) looks like common table salt. But it kills everything from bacteria and fungi to mammals - including humans. It is as powerful a poison as sodium cyanide.
Although sodium azide has long been used in many industrial products, such as broad-spectrum biocides, explosives detonators, anticorrosion solutions, and airline safety chutes, a much larger threat emerged with the advent of the automobile airbag.

And went onto present a case for concern to the environment with increasing levels of NaN3 stored in scrapped cars.

Yes, there is also mention of " Rocket fuel" but also a comment:
"It's probably not the healthiest vapor to breath, but it's better to not have the horn button (or worse) impaled in your chest".

My "thought" :
Therefore relatively safer!.

[1979scotte]

Air bags save lives.
I wouldn't change my steering wheel to a non Air bag setup.
However if you routinely don't wear a seat belt I would hate to think what would happen.
Yes people still do this.
My dad routinely pops round the corner without.

[Jimbo]

It's all relative. With a kid in the front then the seat goes all the way back, that's how I will be doing it without worries. Yes the rear seats are the best place, but that's as much about where impacts occur as anything else.

Children can be killed or injured by books, my little boy now has a bit bruise on his face as slipped on a book into a book case - but I'm not going to get rid of all our books!

There's always an example of where not having/using a safety device saved someone (the classic "mini under the lorry example, driver without a seatbelt slipped down the seat and avoided his head being removed") and the same for safety devices causing harm, need to work on the law of averages rather than taking single examples to the extreme.

[1979scotte]

It's all relative. With a kid in the front then the seat goes all the way back, that's how I will be doing it without worries. Yes the rear seats are the best place, but that's as much about where impacts occur as anything else.

Children can be killed or injured by books, my little boy now has a bit bruise on his face as slipped on a book into a book case - but I'm not going to get rid of all our books!

There's always an example of where not having/using a safety device saved someone (the classic "mini under the lorry example, driver without a seatbelt slipped down the seat and avoided his head being removed") and the same for safety devices causing harm, need to work on the law of averages rather than taking single examples to the extreme.

A well thought out and articulated reply.

[Dev]

 The first air bag I was hit with was very powerful. It was from a 1991 car and the explosive  used slightly burned my face but it wasn't that bad. I was blinded by the powder used to keep the bag from sticking but once my eyes were clear all was well.   I can see a bag like this killing a very frail old lady in her 80s but apart from that not all old ladies are going to die.

 The second one was from a 2008 H3 Hummer. I was the passenger and the driver was a short statured women. The air bag was much better as we didn't even feel it and no powder. They are a lot safer than they use to be for the majority of occupants. Some turn off the air bag automatically if the weight of the seat doesn't meet with the criteria and some newer ones monitor the position of the head but from what I have heard the air bags have improved again where it's much safer.

 They have plenty of statistics and crash data over many decades to suggest overwhelmingly they work and bring about the desired result of saving lives and reducing head trauma.  There are those that take it upon themselves to remove the air bags by siting one extreme example to justify a fancy non air bag steering wheel which I have found to be a disingenuous way to make it fit and try to convince others to do the same. At the very least don't remove the passenger side.

 

[Petrus]

Like many things airbags have various aspects. Not ónly safe ones. In the case of airbags it is the underlying legal reason why they are not obligatory.

The positives outweighing the negatives, by however much, does not make it wise to ignore, worse still deny the negatives. That is called cherry picking at best and more correctly ostrich behaviour. That can be unsafe, even deadly in this case.

In to our MR2 it ís a bit tricky. Only in very few markets it was sold with an option, a switch in the glove box, to switch the passenger one off. Without that option the manufacturers instruction is that it is too hazardous to seat a child under 12 in the car as there ís no back seat.

Again; by all means think the airbag is overall a good thing, but calling someone mentioning this negative disingenous or spamming is imo well, tant pis.

Oh and btw Í found the ´adults only´ quite funny. Humor is relative too :-)

[1979scotte]

Like many things airbags have various aspects. Not ónly safe ones. In the case of airbags it is the underlying legal reason why they are not obligatory.

The positives outweighing the negatives, by however much, does not make it wise to ignore, worse still deny the negatives. That is called cherry picking at best and more correctly ostrich behaviour. That can be unsafe, even deadly in this case.

In to our MR2 it ís a bit tricky. Only in very few markets it was sold with an option, a switch in the glove box, to switch the passenger one off. Without that option the manufacturers instruction is that it is too hazardous to seat a child under 12 in the car as there ís no back seat.

Again; by all means think the airbag is overall a good thing, but calling someone mentioning this negative disingenous or spamming is imo well, tant pis.

Oh and btw Í found the ´adults only´ quite funny. Humor is relative too :-)

I think somewhere along the line your point was lost.
This has been discussed before the child seat must be front facing and the passenger seat fully back.
Rear facing seats are a no no.

[Joesson]

It may or not be the case that air bags are legally obligatory.
I suggest that if a vehicle is fitted with one or more then the removal of one or more is a modification and the insurance company must be advised.
Failure to advise of modifications, in my understanding, can invalidate the car insurance.
But also perhaps worthy of consideration is the effect on other insurance such as private health insurance. Would a private health insurer fund treatment for a self inflicted injury?
Similarly Mortgage protection and life insurance.
How would such an insurer view self inflicted injury or death?
Certainly suicide voids such life policies.
Your car, your life, but is there someone else in it?

[Petrus]

Then to the appearantly heavy weighing personal experience.
I have done close to 1 million kms in most EU countries and the UK.
Been in óne accident in which the aibags would have been of possible use. I was not driving and they failed to explode. The safety belts did it aok.
Chance wise this should make me demánd airbags :-)

I assume we all are aware that the passenger putting the feet on the dash is worth a seriously hefty fine.
The reason is mainly and with goor reason the passenger airbag.

Back to the personal anekdotal info, over here in summer, many a ladyfriend likes to kick off the shoes and put a foot ot two on the dash regardles of the car but more in the cabrio. Heck sometimes even out of the window!!
I warn them not too when one of those new fangled traffic cameras comes in sight. As responsible adults we should réally tell them not to at all!

[Petrus]

It may or not be the case that air bags are legally obligatory.
I suggest that if a vehicle is fitted with one or more then the removal of one or more is a modification and the insurance company must be advised.

It is more stringent still. If the car is fitted with it/them as OEM than it is illegal to remove.

[Petrus]

I think somewhere along the line your point was lost.
This has been discussed before the child seat must be front facing and the passenger seat fully back.
Rear facing seats are a no no.

By all means read the sticker.

[Petrus]

It may or not be the case that air bags are legally obligatory.
I suggest that if a vehicle is fitted with one or more then the removal of one or more is a modification and the insurance company must be advised.
Failure to advise of modifications, in my understanding, can invalidate the car insurance.
But also perhaps worthy of consideration is the effect on other insurance such as private health insurance. Would a private health insurer fund treatment for a self inflicted injury?
Similarly Mortgage protection and life insurance.
How would such an insurer view self inflicted injury or death?
Certainly suicide voids such life policies.
Your car, your life, but is there someone else in it?

Quite. Insurance companies again. No argument there; you are entirely correct.
It will happen with vaccinations too probably.

[1979scotte]

It may or not be the case that air bags are legally obligatory.
I suggest that if a vehicle is fitted with one or more then the removal of one or more is a modification and the insurance company must be advised.
Failure to advise of modifications, in my understanding, can invalidate the car insurance.
But also perhaps worthy of consideration is the effect on other insurance such as private health insurance. Would a private health insurer fund treatment for a self inflicted injury?
Similarly Mortgage protection and life insurance.
How would such an insurer view self inflicted injury or death?
Certainly suicide voids such life policies.
Your car, your life, but is there someone else in it?

Suicide certainly doesn't invalidate life insurance mate.
Maybe some of them but not all.

[Joesson]

It may or not be the case that air bags are legally obligatory.
I suggest that if a vehicle is fitted with one or more then the removal of one or more is a modification and the insurance company must be advised.
Failure to advise of modifications, in my understanding, can invalidate the car insurance.
But also perhaps worthy of consideration is the effect on other insurance such as private health insurance. Would a private health insurer fund treatment for a self inflicted injury?
Similarly Mortgage protection and life insurance.
How would such an insurer view self inflicted injury or death?
Certainly suicide voids such life policies.
Your car, your life, but is there someone else in it?

Suicide certainly doesn't invalidate life insurance mate.
Maybe some of them but not all.

You are correct Scotte.
I have now found only that some policies would not pay out within 12 or 24 months of starting the policy.
The same article refers to past  changes to that clause, so it is possible / likely as that is my recollection.
My life policy, a Term Policy,  that was at the time the lowest cost form of mortgage protection, iirc  had such a clause, but the term was up over 10 years ago.
The term policy reduced each year in line with the outstanding mortgage and ended when the mortgage ended with no cash refund.

[Alex Knight]

The positives outweighing the negatives, by however much, does not make it wise to ignore, worse still deny the negatives. That is called cherry picking at best and more correctly ostrich behaviour. That can be unsafe, even deadly in this case.

No.

It's called efficacy. If something is literally and statistically more likely than not to save lives, it cannot be, by its own existence, a bad thing.

Nothing is 100% safe.

5 people died in 2010 in the UK as a result of coming into contact with bees, wasps, or hornets (source: ONS).

Do we kill all bees, wasps and hornets as a result of this? No.

Do we all walk around with beekeeping suits as a result of this? No.

No one is denying that airbags have injured and killed people, which is undeniably tragic. I cannot see that I, or anyone else on this forum has either.

But to doom-monger as you are about something that is significantly less statistically likely to happen is bordering on the absurd.

If you truly feel the need to put fingers to keyboard, why on earth would you focus on a statistically insignificant aspect of an invention that has doubtless saved many thousands of lives?

Your point is naive at best, wearyingly cynical at worst. In either case, it's tediously and tenuously myopic.

Please, think before you feel compelled to share this utter drivel.

Thank you.

[Petrus]

Please, think before you feel compelled to share this utter drivel.

Thank you.

Oh my.

If you can´t beat them insult them?

Breath in, out, Zénnnnn and enjoy your weekend.
Oh and don´t put a kid in the passenger seat ;-)