Help fine tuning emu black tune for MOT

[shnazzle]

SUCCESS! partially... ignition timing is now doing mostly what its told!

Hooray!



I've emailed out the logs, but I honestly couldn't quite work out the CAM timing instructions..



Which one of these was I supposed to be adjusting? I tried both but I don't think I could tell if it was doing anything.. I only tried 1 or 2 degrees on the table as I was a bit too chicken to put it higher without checking first!

Idle is kind of "surging" a bit..
I was doing research on the facebook site and there seemed to be a lot of comments on people using out coil packs for other applications pointing out that dwell times above 3.2 were too high.. application was predominantly on 2JZ engines though.

Not surprised at all.
Dwell times are dwell times. They don't change per car.

To me, I'd want all the right settings in there from the get go. Otherwise you're constantly battling stuff.

[Gaz2405]

Good team work guys!

[shnazzle]

Wrt CAM1.


It's NOT the table. Leave the table be
Go to Parameters and change the offset (first field) until the log for CAM1 angle shows 0 at idle. 

[jvanzyl]

Wrt CAM1.


It's NOT the table. Leave the table be
Go to Parameters and change the offset (first field) until the log for CAM1 angle shows 0 at idle.

Got it. I did try going up to 585 but got nervous.. I'll give that a go tomorrow night 😊

I've found the following dwell times for our coil packs:

8V 6.3
9V 5.3
10V 4.4
11V 3.8
12V 3.2
13V 2.7
14V 2.4
15V 2.2

Good team work guys!

Indeed!

[simonrobinson]

Straight from the Toyota 1zz Data = "Ignition timing 8 – 12° BTDC at idle" and "Sprocket with VVT actuator is mounted to intake camshaft, variable timing range - 40°"

Thus the CAM 1 maximum retard/advance should be @ 40 degrees (notice its set to 30 yet the table demands 37 degrees    )

I think the Deadband should be tighter @ 1.5'

I think the CAM offset is bob on at the moment @ 584


The only issue with messing with the coil dwell times is it will probably then need the ignition map retuning, and before getting into that game you want to check your drift with a timing light to fix your "Ignition - Primary Trigger - Input Delay" which is currently zero and that is plain impossible.... do not go down that rabbit hole yet! Just ignore that elephant in the room for now  But that is just my 2p, dodgy ignition tables on boost are high risk



Now you need to go back to the "Idle - Idle Ref Table" and bring down this area to get the idle on your 950rpm target. Which then may in turn the VE table need tweaking on the idle cells to get the AFR in tune. (you change the air, you change the fuel, snake eating its own tail)




I think you should plan to fix your VVT table to look like this, because yours is pretty broken, and having a target of 1 degree shows us if your VVT is working, and having a target of 5 degrees at fast idle will show us its chasing the target correctly. (and its an actually sane smooth table!)



I'll email that table so you don't have to manually copy each value.

And then do us another log with a fast idle test in it too.

[jvanzyl]

Hi @simonrobinson thanks very much for this! Currently ill in bed, and as much as I want to implement these changes I'm not quite able bodied at this current time. I hope so be able to do it tomorrow though 😁

[simonrobinson]

I have my MOT tomorrow, cat pipe is made and badly diy welded up, Vbands seal good.
Got the AFR's sitting flat as you can get at the idle and fast idle.

Fast idle:-


Tickover:-



Terrible welding:-


Fingers crossed it does it, but it still smells a bit petrolly. I'm getting that car in the MOT bay with that cat glowing red.

Now I'm thinking if there is a tiny air leak that is getting into the wideband sensor then the MOT test machine lambda values will not match my AFR's, and than I should just change my target AFR table.

[jvanzyl]

Best of luck man. I've been laid up in bed since tues and my current temp is 38 degrees after medication.
One day I'll get back to it...

[Gaz2405]

Godspeed

[Call the midlife!]

I have my MOT tomorrow, cat pipe is made and badly diy welded up, Vbands seal good.
Got the AFR's sitting flat as you can get at the idle and fast idle.

Fast idle:-


Tickover:-



Terrible welding:-


Fingers crossed it does it, but it still smells a bit petrolly. I'm getting that car in the MOT bay with that cat glowing red.

Now I'm thinking if there is a tiny air leak that is getting into the wideband sensor then the MOT test machine lambda values will not match my AFR's, and than I should just change my target AFR table.

If you think that's bad welding you should see some on an exhaust I bought from a main manufacturer 😂

[Ardent]

I've been laid up in bed since tues and my current temp is 38 degrees after medication.

Keep a close eye on that that temp. Monitor heart rate, usually elevates, if a viral infection.
Paracetamol and plenty of fluids. Any other symptoms?

Vit C and D.

You need to monitor your own mapping right now.

[jvanzyl]

Keep a close eye on that that temp. Monitor heart rate, usually elevates, if a viral infection.
Paracetamol and plenty of fluids. Any other symptoms?

Vit C and D.

You need to monitor your own mapping right now.

thanks man, just I have been keeping a close eye on it.
At it happens right now is the first time it's registering as "normal" so looking forward to not feeling so utterly rubbish and hopefully getting some actual sleep!

[simonrobinson]

Well I got a fail.

But it was very close to passing.

It totally flew though HC's and Lambda with flying colours, both idle and and fast idle. So my catalyst is totally doing its job.

But it failed on CO (monoxides), and only just, it was at 0.5% vol. Monoxides are created in the cylinder.

After the test they let me play with the gas analyser with my laptop plugged in.

If I lean it out it then passes the CO monoxides test, but then its too lean so the lambda is above 1.03..... literally it ends up at 1.06

Now I think although my exhaust seal pretty well, I think there is still a bit of a leak.

So its skewing the lambda readings, which then required excessive fuelling to sort out, which creates the monoxides. It smells rich and fuelly.

I'll go back next week with a revised setup.

[jvanzyl]

Shucks.. sorry to hear that man.. send me a pm as to which mot center let you plug in and test with the analyzer?

[simonrobinson]

It was a special favour as I help them out. But its not required and will not solve anything. I am bound to secrecy about these experiments and misuse of live in test equipment!

It was interesting to see the real time relationship between Lambda and CO.

Leaner fuelling reduce monoxides as there is enough oxygen to spread about, and richer mixtures increase monoxides as there isn't the oxygen there to complete all the reactions properly.

I just couldn't quite get a passable compromise between lambda requirements and CO% volume which would pass the requirements. One way or the other it would just push one into the "red".

I think if:-

• exhaust system is 99% air tight
• target lambda is correct and held stable on the wideband
• timing is truly at real world 10 to 12 degrees
• cylinder balance is reasonably equal with almost no misfire

then the emissions test requirements will be passed.

[Ardent]

thanks man, just I have been keeping a close eye on it.
At it happens right now is the first time it's registering as "normal" so looking forward to not feeling so utterly rubbish and hopefully getting some actual sleep!

The good news, the body has sorted it out and you're on the mend.
The better news, the body, (read. natural immune system) is now equipped to deal with the same type of infection in toot suit time, should you encounter it again.

[jvanzyl]

It was a special favour as I help them out. But its not required and will not solve anything. I am bound to secrecy about these experiments and misuse of live in test equipment!

It was interesting to see the real time relationship between Lambda and CO.

Leaner fuelling reduce monoxides as there is enough oxygen to spread about, and richer mixtures increase monoxides as there isn't the oxygen there to complete all the reactions properly.

I just couldn't quite get a passable compromise between lambda requirements and CO% volume which would pass the requirements. One way or the other it would just push one into the "red".

I think if:-

• exhaust system is 99% air tight
• target lambda is correct and held stable on the wideband
• timing is truly at real world 10 to 12 degrees
• cylinder balance is reasonably equal with almost no misfire

then the emissions test requirements will be passed.

No worries - and I'm assuming your cat is a 200 cel of nondescript origin possibly like mine?

[jvanzyl]

Hi All - logs all emailed out.

Managed to finally get back to the car...
All updates implemented were as follows:
Since the ignition timing now works I tried a variety of values between 11 & 12.5, for the idle reference values I was slowly bringing these down (that was right wasn't it??) in an effort to make it idle smoothly. Varied success... I think the stumbling is gone but I can hear it sort of surging/sucking in air.. lamba values sort of where they were before?

Cheers,

John

[jvanzyl]

So here we have idling (once warmed up)


And higher rev


I think the "stumbling" is gone... which is a big bonus.. but the lambda value are still up and done... things don't seem to be going "smoothly".. is this a function of timing, fueling. and idle reference values? Or do I start with the ignition timing and then adjust fueling and idle ref values as best I can to effect smoothness?

[Carolyn]

When working on an analogue car, I always set the timing before messing with the carb.

Spark first, fuel second.

[jvanzyl]

When working on an analogue car, I always set the timing before messing with the carb.

Spark first, fuel second.

Thank you @Carolyn - in this situation where it appears I can set the timing between 8-12 according to theory.. I'm trying to read up on identifying the "right" timing to set.. if anyone has any resources on which to read up on from I'd welcome them (the world is awash with opinions) as I'm operating under the assumption that i have to figure this out as a starting point.

[Carolyn]

When doing an analogue car, I would set static timing at 10 degrees BTDC, which is probably equivalent to 12 degrees BTDC at 900 rpm as the bob weight mechanism in the distributor starts to advance the timing.

[Gaz2405]

So here we have idling (once warmed up)


And higher rev


I think the "stumbling" is gone... which is a big bonus.. but the lambda value are still up and done... things don't seem to be going "smoothly".. is this a function of timing, fueling. and idle reference values? Or do I start with the ignition timing and then adjust fueling and idle ref values as best I can to effect smoothness?

Have you got EGO correction on ?

I'll ping you a pm with my email address for the log.

[Gaz2405]

Ok spotted a few things to try.

I've not reviewed the log yet as I'm on an older version of the software.

Your virtual target you have ticked on idle control is set to 300rpm, I wonder if it's trying to fight down to 300rpm.





You've also got some cam timing in at low rpm, I'd have this set at zero in idle range.

I'll download the most recent software and have a look at the log now.

[jvanzyl]

So.. PID control and ignition control are both off.
As I understand it.. EGO has been renamed something to do with short term fuel correction. @simonrobinson found this out earlier in the thread.

To look at your logs I have had to upgrade my EMU software from 2.138 to 2.169 and that is why you cannot find EGO correction. "EGO correction replaced by Short term trim strategy." is in the version control of ECU master. So the magic datalogging value is now Short term trim corr.

It appears they have changed lambda target strategy but anyway I digress! And now it only kicks in outside of tickover.

During your idle it is not using any sort of fuel trim, that sits solid at 100%, it is though using "idle ign. correction" to hamper or excite the engine speed to achieve your desired idle speed. The ignition is set to 8.5 degrees on your table at the idle spot. But its pulling it to about 5 degrees to achieve your idle.

Now I think, if you mess with your throttle body stop, or get your idle control valve working it would hit idle control better, making your idle AFR not wobble about. But this is a world of last minute MOT fixes! It appears your idle control motor is not doing anything, its just staying at 42% / 137 steps. Maybe it does not work very well or is not setup. And thus ECUMaster is falling back to ignition retarding/advancing to chase the target idle.

You could just manually change your ignition timing in the idle cells to 5 degrees to see if that stabilises you. And your target idle is set to 950rpm while you are only idling at 900rpm, so its trying to hit a target it cannot reach. Maybe you should change the warm "idle target rpm" to 900rpm.

A combination of changing the target speed to what it can achieve, with the timing it uses to achieve it might stabilise your ARF's allowing you to tune that better. Its just hunting about in PID loops trying to achieve the impossible at the moment.


Now for your fast idle tests which are pretty good. You are hitting 110% Short term trim corr. for it to hit your target of 1.00 lambda, it needs more fuel in these cells. Now that one line has been increased to 41 / 42.... its needs the table to be smooth, can't have the values above and below it going up and down!



The aim of the game is for your VE table to get you close to bang on to your target lambda. Using closed loop correction factor to get you on target is not cool and will always lead to wobbly feedback loops. Try that sort of tuning strategy on WOT under boost and you are playing dangerous games, remarkably modern ecus manage to fill the gap pretty quickly, but its seriously uncool.

So looking around for what would be likely leads me to this little table here:



which is showing "on"? I take it this should be off?