Help fine tuning emu black tune for MOT

[shnazzle]

What injectors is it running, are they listed in the injector wizard?

Yes. That's the embarrassing part. Siemens 630s.
And the offsets are wildly off from what is in there. It's daft. Just laziness

[Gaz2405]

Yes. That's the embarrassing part. Siemens 630s.
And the offsets are wildly off from what is in there. It's daft. Just laziness

I'd pick the injectors from the injector wizard to start with then and go from there.

[shnazzle]

I'd pick the injectors from the injector wizard to start with then and go from there.

But then the whole tune is garbage, including the now good power range

[Gaz2405]

But then the whole tune is garbage, including the now good power range

I'm forgetting the tune hasn't been built by Jay.

But it wouldn't take long to get the VE table sorted road mapping.

[shnazzle]

I'm forgetting the tune hasn't been built by Jay.

But it wouldn't take long to get the VE table sorted road mapping.

I mean, it's a great learning opportunity. Do a Gaz

But to take it to the original issue; the first port of call is to get to through MOT. After that, it leaves room to "play".
The beauty of it is that when J just needs to use the car in anger, just load in the RRR map and off he goes. Once he's got time again, load in his map and continue his calibration ventures

[simonrobinson]

I agree with Gaz, the fuel table is easy to do and the autotune function will get it +95% of the way there, this injector issue will need crossing one day, but I'm uncertain it will cure your current emissions war. Tuning wise its the ignition table that is the hard part which does not need to be touched, the VE table is easy.

After an hour of looking closely at your logs, Shnazzle is 100% correct, the IACV is actually working. No drinking coolant is required!

But the idle control is not tuned correctly.The ecu is trying to obtain the target idle, but its fighting itself.

From the newest logs, Gaz's settings are not helping yours idle at all, go back to where you were before.

Set you target idle table at 76 degs and 83 degrees to 900 rpm too.

Turn off the Idle ignition control all together just to tune this table below.

Increase this area a little bit, step it up till you hit your target idle:-



Lets see it actually obtain its target.

[shnazzle]

Also don't forget to turn off idle ignition control. The ignition timing map is bad enough as it is at idle ranges. I'd be inclined to just settle for a 11-14deg range is the idle and increase linearly towards fast idle (luckily much along the same Y axis as no load), tune VE, then maybe turn on idle ignition control to "cheat" the timing map at idle? Have it try to meet the targets via the VE + guesstimated timing+ idle ignition control 

[jvanzyl]

I agree with Gaz, the fuel table is easy to do and the autotune function will get it +95% of the way there, this injector issue will need crossing one day, but I'm uncertain it will cure your current emissions war. Tuning wise its the ignition table that is the hard part which does not need to be touched, the VE table is easy.

After an hour of looking closely at your logs, Shnazzle is 100% correct, the IACV is actually working. No drinking coolant is required!

But the idle control is not tuned correctly.The ecu is trying to obtain the target idle, but its fighting itself.

From the newest logs, Gaz's settings are not helping yours idle at all, go back to where you were before.

Set you target idle table at 76 degs and 83 degrees to 900 rpm too.

Turn off the Idle ignition control all together just to tune this table below.

Increase this area a little bit, step it up till you hit your target idle:-



Lets see it actually obtain its target.

Got it.

I guess worst case scenario I build a map fresh that only focuses on the MOT Rev range and use RRR for trying too and from the mot..

[jvanzyl]

Also don't forget to turn off idle ignition control. The ignition timing map is bad enough as it is at idle ranges. I'd be inclined to just settle for a 11-14deg range is the idle and increase linearly towards fast idle (luckily much along the same Y axis as no load), tune VE, then maybe turn on idle ignition control to "cheat" the timing map at idle? Have it try to meet the targets via the VE + guesstimated timing+ idle ignition control

I spy another teams call on the horizon to make sure I've understood this

[jvanzyl]

Yes. That's the embarrassing part. Siemens 630s.
And the offsets are wildly off from what is in there. It's daft. Just laziness

These are the injectors I bought off of you @Gaz2405

[shnazzle]

I spy another teams call on the horizon to make sure I've understood this

Let's get some feedback on my post first haha
It may be a terrible idea

[jvanzyl]

Hi All, updated logs and maps emailed out (the software is free to install if you wish to play "pretend tuner with me".

I've updated the idle reference table (started increasing the values, and then leaning out the fuel mixture.. I don't think the ignition timing took a blind bit of notice, but please double check me on that... if anything the values in the "quick tune" section were dropping down lower I think) and turned off idle ignition control.
Changed the target rev to 900 all the way through from 76 degrees.
Ran autotune after a couple of rev ranging etc. 

To be honest, ignoring the fact that the ignition timing was doing it's own thing... I do think it was finding the 900 rpm range a bit better and possible idling better?

[simonrobinson]

There is certainly something wonky going on here, I can see you are trying to do a fast idle test at 2600rpm roughly. Study this screenshot.




The AFR is bouncing about like a yoyo. The timing is holding static, the injector pulsewidth % is basically static (going between 2.5% and 3%). I don't understand how you can have such a large deviation in AFR's, it should be a nearly straight line.

Are you sure its not misfiring a bit? Maybe 18 degrees timing is too advanced? Maybe its too retarded? I'd play with the timing and see if your AFR line cleans up.






But the million dollar question, what in the world is making it offset the ignition timing from the table value by 4.5 degrees here at idle? The idle timing correction = 0, the IAT = 0, CLT = 0, Knock correction = 0, custom ign correction = 0, CYLcorr = 0, launch control = 0  it should be bloody sparking at 7 degrees, not 2.5 degrees!

The final ignition angle is calculated in the following way:
Angle  = IGN(load,rpm) + CYLCorr(cyl) + IATCorr + CLTCorr +  KSCorr + IDLECorr + LCCorr + Nitro(load, rpm) + TPSvsMAP(tps, MAP)

I would be tempted to ask on the ECUmaster facebook group, someone on there will know why its doing that, but its currently beyond me!

Post the screen shot and ask here:- https://www.facebook.com/groups/1554134521519230/

[jvanzyl]

The AFR is bouncing about like a yoyo. The timing is holding static, the injector pulsewidth % is basically static (going between 2.5% and 3%). I don't understand how you can have such a large deviation in AFR's, it should be a nearly straight line.

Are you sure its not misfiring a bit? Maybe 18 degrees timing is too advanced? Maybe its too retarded? I'd play with the timing and see if your AFR line cleans up.

I do think it sort of misfires a bit.. I mean it's not a stable rhythmic engine running, it sort of stumbles a bit, the stumbles are where the AFR goes awry.

I'll have a fiddle round more with ignition timing..

Not looking forward to venturing onto facebook... ergh..

Thanks very much all the same!

[simonrobinson]

I think it might have something to do with this, look at that wobbly cam sync.



Your primary trigger / cam sync tooth is bouncing about, its not keeping proper sync.

I think you should try changing your "Next Edge rejection angle" to 6 degrees.

If you watched with a timing light, you might find your spark is jumping forwards and backwards all the time by about 5 degrees under low engine speeds.

[jvanzyl]

I think it might have something to do with this, look at that wobbly cam sync.



Your primary trigger / cam sync tooth is bouncing about, its not keeping proper sync.

I think you should try changing your "Next Edge rejection angle" to 6 degrees.

If you watched with a timing light, you might find your spark is jumping forwards and backwards all the time by about 5 degrees under low engine speeds.

I shall try this later today! Thank you! Part of me swings between thinking I could build a base map to WTF is this new parameter that @simonrobinson  has started taking about...

Managed to get access to the ECU master Facebook site... 32k members and a LOT of posts asking questions but very few responses... 🙁

[shnazzle]

I think it might have something to do with this, look at that wobbly cam sync.



Your primary trigger / cam sync tooth is bouncing about, its not keeping proper sync.

I think you should try changing your "Next Edge rejection angle" to 6 degrees.

If you watched with a timing light, you might find your spark is jumping forwards and backwards all the time by about 5 degrees under low engine speeds.

J's settings are exactly as mine were. The sensor or tooth setup doesn't change so it should be fine you'd think.
Unless the ground on the sensor needsa clean (common issue).

John can you scope the sensor? That should make it pretty obvious

[jvanzyl]

Ok then. I think I scoped the sensor...



Are the gaps the issue??

Did a bunch of other things, tried changing the injector values via the wizard.. Not sure that worked..
Logs etc have all been mailed out.
I await your wisdom!

[simonrobinson]

Well the edge rejection made zero effect. So much for that idea.

I have no idea why its retarding the ignition once its warmed up.

Ask on the facebook group as there are some guys on there who are absolute wizards with EMU. Its quite a good group, it attracts good people, its not like a car group.

[jvanzyl]

Well the edge rejection made zero effect. So much for that idea.

I have no idea why its retarding the ignition once its warmed up.

Ask on the facebook group as there are some guys on there who are absolute wizards with EMU. Its quite a good group, it attracts good people, its not like a car group.

Yeah no worries hey 😊
I submitted my question- it's still pending review.

[shnazzle]

Spent a bit of time this morning looking through the options for timing and came across the answer quite swiftly as you have already eliminated any corrections.

Basically it's the CAM1 adjustment.
It's not set right so it's permanently advancing.

Just pop CAM1 angle into the log graph and you'll see it.

It's not in the map though, hence it has to be the angles set wrong.

I compared it with a config I had (mine vs J's resp);
CAM offset; 587deg vs 584deg
Max retard/advance: 30deg vs 38deg  - this one can be different depending on the car I think
Steady pos DC: 43% vs 38%
Min volt DC: 25% vs 20%

The CAM map itself doesn't exactly look Toyota-spec. It's definitely aimed at power. Which is fine but it does of course take away some of the benefits of fuel economy with some overlap with the exhaust valve.

But all in all...you can't have overlap during idle. It'll mess with it. 

You'll see that when the engine is warming up (CAM1 doesn't kick in until 60deg) the lambda is actually tracking. But once the CAM1 is engaged you start to see lambda variance increasing linearly with the amount of CAM1 intake overlap.

Get rid of that and you get rid of the difference in timing and idle should be smoother.

The rest is still just VE.

WRT to the ignition map; Nothing is going to convince me that 5-7 deg is correct for idle. From tinkering I do know that lambda went lean when advancing and rich when retarding. But only very marginally. 
If you can get the timing to around the recommended 12-14deg or so around idle then I reckon it'll be quite sweet.

After that you can add corrections to your heart's content to deal with changes in weather etc.

[shnazzle]

To further reiterate the offset being wrong;

When the VVT is inactive (look on logs under 60deg CLT), it is still adding 0.5-2.0. 
This should be a flat 0. If the offset is correct and there's no angle requested then it should be 0. Seems obvious.

@jvanzyl this is an easy one. 
On a cold car;
Just run the car, have a log showing CAM1 angle, and degree by degree change the offset until you see the graph at a stable 0.

Once done, then graph the Ignition angle vs Ignition table and see where you're at

[simonrobinson]

That is very good info shazzle, it would certainly explain why the sync tooth count wanders from 57 to 58. And also that it doesn't wander when its on cold (no VVT) and when the cam is getting controlled properly.

Looking at a log that trigger tooth is 100% connected to the wandering VVT control at idle.



Tighten that up and it should make steps towards a more stable idle AFR. Your ignition angle might sort itself out too.

And maybe it needs a bit of VVT advancement at the fast idle area to clean up the misfirey unstable AFR there? Because on your fast idle its still 0.00 - maybe it should be about 10 to 15 degrees? Tweak it and listen to see if it stops burbling.

[simonrobinson]

So shnazzle has save the day on the weird wandering VVT / trigger problem.

And it looks like Vitali Kvartler on the facebook group has come to rescue with the idle ignition retard problem.



Fix those two and you're on the path to success.

P.S. This is the VVT settings from another example:-

[jvanzyl]

So shnazzle has save the day on the weird wandering VVT / trigger problem.

And it looks like Vitali Kvartler on the facebook group has come to rescue with the idle ignition retard problem.



Fix those two and you're on the path to success.

P.S. This is the VVT settings from another example:-

SUCCESS! partially... ignition timing is now doing mostly what its told!

Hooray!



I've emailed out the logs, but I honestly couldn't quite work out the CAM timing instructions..



Which one of these was I supposed to be adjusting? I tried both but I don't think I could tell if it was doing anything.. I only tried 1 or 2 degrees on the table as I was a bit too chicken to put it higher without checking first!

Idle is kind of "surging" a bit..
I was doing research on the facebook site and there seemed to be a lot of comments on people using out coil packs for other applications pointing out that dwell times above 3.2 were too high.. application was predominantly on 2JZ engines though.