Toyota fix 5yr old 51K out of warranty for oil consumption!!

[Anonymous]

I don't know if this is already common knowledge but here goes anyway. I bought a 2000(W) with 51K MR2 last year after a long line of mental cars ( Elise 190, 2xCaterhams, 2 TVRs and a Westfield megablade ).

Having never really had any problems with previous cars, ( even with extensive track use ), I was dissappointed to find that after a few months it was using oil at a rate of 1/2 litre per 200miles, this was especially annoying as I'd bought the car as a reliable runaround whilst scraping enough money to buy an NSX.
I thought it was the dreaded precat problem ( this however may be a sympton not the cause, please read on ).

I took it down to my local dealer, who had me do a consumption test with their oil and filter. Once confirmed they admitted that there were known issues with a range of early 1.8 VVTi engines with bore wear and piston rings as highlighted here  m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10517 m  etc  ( I caught a sneaky peeky of a warranty bulletin on their desk and it affects all cars with this engine Avensis etc ).

The important point to note is that under sales of goods act 1979 goods have to function for at least 6 six years ( or something like that ),even if they are outside of warranty they can't just wear out before a reasonable lifetime.
Anyway I knew this when I took it in and Toyota know this too and to their credit they have now owned up. They had the dealer strip the engine which I agreed to pay for if it was something else wrong and they measured the bores and sent the results to MrT. After a false 1st reading Toyota agreed to fix with an Optifit short engine. I'm due to collect it tomorrow, after being without it for nearly 3 months   s:x :x s:x  , which I think is a bit cr@p but that's another story and a dealer problem not Toyotas

I know this may be too late for a lot of you but I thought it only fair to let you know as the forum proved invaluable in building an argument, funny thing is they didn't put up an argument, the dealer pretty much told me straight off that I wasn't the only one and that they would see what they could do. I guess Toyota have a reputation to think about.

Anyway the moral is if you have this problem get it down the dealers before you attack the precats
and get them to check it out, you may well be covered.

The only question I have now is whether to stump up £655 for the warranty, I must admit it seems pretty bullit proof, or just flog it and buy sn S2000! I guess I've just lost faith, having to do mods like gutting pre-cats is the stuff of TVRs etc NOT Toyotas!. Any comments experiences most welcome as I haven't been over enamoured with my local dealer, I consider being off the road for nearly 3 months unacceptable as Toyota agreed the fix on Feb 11th.

[Chris_h]

I am confused as hell too about his precat thing - is it cause or effect of something else. Is it possible for the precats to be 'sucked up' into the combustion chamber and cause damage?
I think precats seems to be blamed for everything - I suppose the acid test is - do Celicas suffer from premature engine failures? - as I believe they are identical bar the pre cats... ISTR i have read about Celicas having similar engine and transmission failures.


Its great news that Toyota are sorting this - there is another thread that alludes to a 5 year warranty for the engine?? but I don't think this is 'officially' stated anywhere.

However, as you pointed out, I picked up an MR2 recently for similar reasons to you - it would be cheap to run and shouldn't have any major failures. So its pretty disappointing to read about these failures - and it seems that people are unsure whether these are all linked somehow? what is the role of precats??

I think I recognise your handle from Blatchat - I never got around to buying a Caterham (came close a few times) but hope to when I have a better garage etc.. Do you still have a 7?

Chris

[Tem]

First of all, PLEASE search, there are tons of info about this.

I am confused as hell too about his precat thing - is it cause or effect of something else.

No one knows for sure. My guess is that it's both. First the engine starts using oil, then the precats go, which cause the final destruction.

Is it possible for the precats to be 'sucked up' into the combustion chamber and cause damage?

Yes. And not only possible, but very likely.

[Chris_h]

TEM - I have done lots of searching, it only seems to add to the confusion...   s:? :? s:?

[Anonymous]

I think the theory behind the pre-cats wrecking engines is because it employs exhaust gas recirculation whereby an  amount of exhaust gas is drawn back in to reduce emmssions, takign bits of ceramic catalyst with it.

It is me of Blatchat fame, shame you never got round to getting a 7 they're FAB and every one should drive one on a circuit before they die, don't have one any more though   s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  . One big advantage to them as well is that specialist in them really are specialists unlike franchised dealer mechanics who aren't specialist in all cars they have to deal with. I heard my engine suffered a "mishap" whereby the timing cover got cracked causing a water leak. Sounds like they dropped it to me!.

[roger]

A question....if anybody can help... on the cause / effect debate.

Would an inspection of the pistons, rings, linings etc., show up different results if

1. The problem was caused by this wear defect, or
2. It was caused by sucking in pre-cat material.

Not quite sure where I am heading, but...........

[Anonymous]

If precat material had been sucked into the bores i would expect to see scoring of the cyclinder wall.

The problem is if the oil leak causes precat failure you are generally going to be too late with an inspection to gather which event happened first.

I had my precats removed 2 weeks ago (51 plate with 40K) and they were basically sound apart from a small crack in the left hand side one. I am however still experiencing what i consider to be "higher than normal" oil consumption even though i can't see any smoke at all from the exhaust once its warmed up. I'm now starting to believe i have the beginnings of the oval bore problem.

All i can do for the time being is keep a close eye on the levels. My old Honda Civic VTI used to use 2 litres of oil between services and i had that from new.

[roger]

If precat material had been sucked into the bores i would expect to see scoring of the cyclinder wall.

Which you wouldn't with bore / ring wear?

[Anonymous]

I was under the impression that bores going oval happened over a fair period of time and that the wear was "smooth" - thats why Toyota will take measurements of the cylinder diameter to determine wheter they are oval or not - its not apparent to the naked eye?

Very hard Ceramic particles will be pushed up and down by the piston rings which will score the surface of the cylinder wall. I guess small particles can even get stuck on or pass though between the rings and the cylinder.

[roger]

So....if you have an engine failure with

1. Oval bores only...definitely engine
2. Oval bores + scratching...engine failure followed by pre-cat failure
3. Scratching ony, but round bores .....caused by pre-cats or lack of oil.

Seems simple, though one might still get an argument as to who is responsible under 3.

So if your engine goes under warranty (or 5 years?), as groutledge says, you have to accept the dismantling cost if it goes against you, but if you end up with 1. or 2. you are home dry. If its 3., you are still in discussion stage!

[Anonymous]

It would be interesting to know if there are any definite cases of oval bores in celicas  causing engine failure, bearing in mind it is the same engine but without the precats......  s:?: :?: s:?:

[Anonymous]

The Avensis has the 1ZZ-FE as well, doesn't it?

[roger]

The Avensis has the 1ZZ-FE as well, doesn't it?

and AFAIAA the pre-cats. So technically speaking the failure rates / problems on both cars should be near enough the same. Any Avensis sites with discussions like this?

[leon_in_uk]

does this topic cover me???

if my engine was using more oil then usual and it got screwed??!!!!

does that mean i can just go down to toyota tomora and drop my old engine in front of them??? and demand an investigation??  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[roger]

Certainly worth a discussion, especially if the 5 year bit applies. I don't think we knew that before, and I reckon that would be your main plan of attack, and why you have done what you have.

They may say they will investigate, but your cost if "nothing" found. That will have to be your decision. Not quite sure what happens though, if they admit liability. They might want to repair your engine.... and hand it back !!??

[Anonymous]

You will have to have a "good quality" service history with Toyota though or they will probably tell you its not their responsibility

Mines been serviced independantly since the 3 yr term expired and mines also a Dutch import - i dont think i'd have much luck.

[Tem]

The Avensis has the 1ZZ-FE as well, doesn't it?

and AFAIAA the pre-cats. So technically speaking the failure rates / problems on both cars should be near enough the same. Any Avensis sites with discussions like this?

Avensis has the same issue.  s:? :? s:?  At least local Toyota dealer has had many cases, I can only assume it's the same all around.

[Chris_h]

I am pretty sure it is a problem on Celicas too. ISTR reading on several occaisions about this.