Intermittent Starting Problem

[je72]

Hang on... So they are saying they can't start the car and they can't find the electrical issue?

That's what he said, he said something along the lines of (bear in mind I didn't record the conversation) "it's not good news I'm afraid, the auto electrician can't fault the wiring, we haven't been able to get it started at all while we've had it. The auto electrician has said that it almost started this morning when he looked at it. The only thing we can think now is that the timing chain could have stretched because that can happen, it happens to Hondas too. If we had been able to start it I could tell if the chain was stretched because of the noise it would make, the problem with your car is that to check it, it all has to be stripped out and at that stage you might as well do the job anyway in the region of £600, have a think about it, take your time and let us know what you want us to do"

There are plenty of options here, one of which is you get another loom and engine off a breaker for probably not much and then you get Steve@D1 to fit it for less than what your garage quoted you..

You can also try a different ECU from a breaker. I just don't buy the whole thing about the chain slipping, as that would still allow the engine to crank and you'd be able to check the timing to see if it was off... That honestly sounds like a load of poo to me.

The engine still cranks when I turned the key (I'm assuming it did for them too) it just didn't start and that's the same as I had those couple of months ago. Immediately before this problem resurrected itself last week I had just given it a bit of welly, not over 5k revs but the stall happened quite soon (half a mile) after I'd done that. Not sure if that's relevant.

[je72]

John is absolutely correct.

You are dealing with rank amateurs.  A stretched timing chain could never cause an intermittent problem.  It doesn't 'un-stretch and' re-stretch'.  It's not an elastic band.  They are about to make a wrong £600 guess at your expense.

If the valve timing is out my so much that it won't start... well how come it does start and then doesn't??

This is ELECTRICAL not mechanical. Period!

The timing chain CAN be measured for stretch by just taking the cam-cover off.  Your lot have not a clue. That's the charitable view....

You have an intermittent electrical problem that comes and goes when the harness in one particular area is moved around.  Probably a wire or connection that is broken but touching, thus sometimes making a circuit and sometimes not.

Get your car out of there ASAP!!

I'd buy a harness off Dean at Rutland MR2 (about £50) and swap it.

Unfortunately Steve at D1 is not active at the moment. 

If you can get your car here, I'll help you through doing the job yourself, using my lift, my tools and my 'expertise'.

We've got a couple of members around here who would show up on a weekend and help out too, two of which have removed a harness with the engine in the car.  I never have - but it's just fiddly, not difficult or complex.

I've also got a spare working ECU in case...

I wish you lived nearer to you @Carolyn I'm sure I wouldn't still be struggling. Of course I have the problem that if I can't start it I can't drive it you.

Do you or anybody have any experience of getting cars transported for reasonable money? Maybe I could try to get it to you, there doesn't seem to be anyone mechanically experienced with our cars near to me (I've previously asked on the other Facebook group too)

If you'd be prepared to have a look at it (and providing I could get her to you) I'd be over the moon!

[je72]

John is absolutely correct.

You are dealing with rank amateurs.  A stretched timing chain could never cause an intermittent problem.  It doesn't 'un-stretch and' re-stretch'.  It's not an elastic band.  They are about to make a wrong £600 guess at your expense.

If the valve timing is out my so much that it won't start... well how come it does start and then doesn't??

This is ELECTRICAL not mechanical. Period!

The timing chain CAN be measured for stretch by just taking the cam-cover off.  Your lot have not a clue. That's the charitable view....

You have an intermittent electrical problem that comes and goes when the harness in one particular area is moved around.  Probably a wire or connection that is broken but touching, thus sometimes making a circuit and sometimes not.

Get your car out of there ASAP!!

I'd buy a harness off Dean at Rutland MR2 (about £50) and swap it.

Unfortunately Steve at D1 is not active at the moment. 

If you can get your car here, I'll help you through doing the job yourself, using my lift, my tools and my 'expertise'.

We've got a couple of members around here who would show up on a weekend and help out too, two of which have removed a harness with the engine in the car.  I never have - but it's just fiddly, not difficult or complex.

I've also got a spare working ECU in case...

I wish I lived nearer to you @Carolyn I'm sure I wouldn't still be struggling. Of course I have the problem that if I can't start it I can't drive it you.

Do you or anybody have any experience of getting cars transported for reasonable money? Maybe I could try to get it to you, there doesn't seem to be anyone mechanically experienced with our cars near to me (I've previously asked on the other Facebook group too)

If you'd be prepared to have a look at it (and providing I could get her to you) I'd be over the moon!

[Carolyn]

The deal with me is:  I help and provide facilities.

You get stuck in.

No charge, just your effort and a chance to learn.

You come with the car, stay for the weekend and Bob's yer dog!!

If that's cool with you, get a quote for shifting the car.  No.  Get several quotes!!

'Goneroaming' did a full engine rebuild here.  So did JVanzyl

I'll  see what can be done about a loom.

[shnazzle]

Take the offer. TAKE IT!

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[Chilli Girl]

The deal with me is:  I help and provide facilities.

You get stuck in.

No charge, just your effort and a chance to learn.

You come with the car, stay for the weekend and Bob's yer dog!!

If that's cool with you, get a quote for shifting the car.  No.  Get several quotes!!

'Goneroaming' did a full engine rebuild here.  So did JVanzyl

I'll  see what can be done about a loom.

Bob's yer dog - funny enough he is called Bob.

[je72]

The deal with me is:  I help and provide facilities.

You get stuck in.

No charge, just your effort and a chance to learn.

You come with the car, stay for the weekend and Bob's yer dog!!

If that's cool with you, get a quote for shifting the car.  No.  Get several quotes!!

'Goneroaming' did a full engine rebuild here.  So did JVanzyl

I'll  see what can be done about a loom.

Amazing!  I totally understand that it's up to me, even though I wasn't conveying it, I understood that I do the work under your guidance.

Just did a quote with anyvan and it came out to £161 so I'll do a bit more shopping around and see how we go.

[Ardent]

Je72

As the least technical person here. Your post at the top of this page. Describing their conclusions.
They are talking utter b0ll0x.
They, as C said, are rank amateurs, having your pants down or both.

However you do it. Get it away from those numpties.

[Ardent]

Who knows. It may actually start for you.

[jvanzyl]

This is your best option.
It's an amazing opportunity. Go for it. £161 for transport plus £50 for a loom... And a MasterCard cannot cover what you'll learn from Carolyn...

Take the offer. TAKE IT!

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[Joesson]

@je72  There seems to be an overwhelming agreement that the garage you are dealing with are unfortunately of the type that give that trade a bad name.
I have mentioned on here previously my experiences with timing drives : geared VW, chain Fiat, and belt Ford and I can say from my experiences that when this element goes wrong it stays wrong. It is not an intermittent fault.

[je72]

@je72  There seems to be an overwhelming agreement that the garage you are dealing with are unfortunately of the type that give that trade a bad name.
I have mentioned on here previously my experiences with timing drives : geared VW, chain Fiat, and belt Ford and I can say from my experiences that when this element goes wrong it stays wrong. It is not an intermittent fault.

Agreed @Joesson I actually found that thread in the course of my research/panic

The thing is, this garage are independant and also an MOT centre, I've been using then for several years, they have a fantastic reputation are frequently recommended in my local area, they know me well and I felt that I trusted them too. Up until this point I've never had a reason to question any diagnosis or invoice, in fact I've always been very happy with them. I'm not sure why they seem to have "dropped the bat" on this one, maybe they just don't like the MR2's challenging setup 

I think I will call them again tomorrow and ask him to go through his diagnosis again, not that it will change the course of action in trying to get it to Carolyn's place, but something just doesn't stack up.

[je72]

Spoken to the garage again, I asked them to clarify what was said to me yesterday as it had caused a fair bit of consternation in these parts.

They pretty much confirmed that an auto-electrician had spent an hour on the car, who had come to the conclusion that there was no fault with the wiring. So he (the auto elec) suggested it was mechanical, the garage are saying that the next best thing to try (and they are freely admitting that there is no guarantee that this will work) is the timing chain. They advised me today that to get to the cam cover and check the chain requires a lot of work, I think she said like 2 hours just to get to it and that's why they suggested possibly replacing anyway it as it wouldn't be much more labour anyway.

They also reconfirmed that neither they or the auto electrician had been able to start the car (although they did say that it "wanted to start") but I do know that it has been moved from the place I originally left it, having driven it with the engine running into position last week.

It's a shame because I've always had a really good relationship with them, but I could tell they did not like the fact that I was getting advice from elsewhere and calling what they were saying into question, I got the "well if they want to come and get it and have a go with it they are welcome" to give them credit they've seen the car and you guys have only ever had my descriptions of the faults, as you'll know I'm very much a blunt tool in this respect so who knows if I've missed something important  plus I think to a professional garage, being 2nd guessed from forums probably gets their goat.

What I've decided to do, I'm going down tomorrow to see if I can start her, if I can, (which would be a bit of a miracle considering they can't) I'll try to bring her home (1.5 miles) I will then get her transported to Carolyn and under her guidance try to resolve the issue. Either that or I cut my losses and see if anyone wants to buy her in this condition 

I'll keep you posted

[jvanzyl]

I know it can feel uncomfortable when speaking to a garage who is used to telling you how it is.

But the reality is that I as even a rank amateur can tell you that I can get to the position of checking timing within 15 minutes...MAX

It's very easy and they have just shown you that they are not interested in doing a good job. I'd also all for the contact details of the electrician so you can follow up with him. If they resist then you really know something is up as you've paid for the service.

If you can't start it, then I'm sure your can get it transported from the garage. The sooner youre shot of them the better.

[Topdownman]

Sorry to hear the saga is still not resolved.

Sadly it sounds like another garage that doesnt understand these cars and is maybe afraid of the mid engine?

Hopefully you can get it running as if you break down again you could get it transported to Carolyns by your breakdown service?

[shnazzle]

Worth mentioning that law of the mechanic is that once someone says someone else had a better idea, that's it. You're getting your food spat on



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[je72]

Sorry to hear the saga is still not resolved.

Sadly it sounds like another garage that doesnt understand these cars and is maybe afraid of the mid engine?

Hopefully you can get it running as if you break down again you could get it transported to Carolyns by your breakdown service?

Now that is an interesting idea! But I suspect if I try to call them out for the same fault, they might not cover it. I'm with that same crew as you Autoaid. I'll have a dig through my policy document.

[Carolyn]

je72 is having it trailered here for the weekend of the 27th Oct.

We're going to swap out the harness. 

Any physical assistance would be appreciated. 

This is a proper Roadster Rescue job!

[je72]

Just got off the phone with Carolyn who has put my mind at rest, she knows these cars so well and explained stuff in a way that even I could understand. So I've put to bed any silly notions of letting her go and we are going to get the car up to her place in the next couple of weeks and see if we can't rescue her. 

[jonbill]

I'll come over.

[je72]

I'll come over.

That would be awesome, I'm buying the beers/wine/coffee/Pork Scratchings 

[Call the midlife!]

It'll be the points, its always the points, just spray everything with wd40 and it'll start like a good 'un!
Good luck with finding an answer, I know what it's like having a car you don't trust.


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[wotugonado]

At least with you doing it yourself it will give you a better understanding of the car, which can only be good for any future problems you may encounter.
Don't be too hard on the mechanics, the rarity of these cars means they are almost always clutching at straws as it an unknown quantity. My mechanic can fix Peugeot's to Renault vans no problem, but the MR2 gave him some wtf moments...

[Carolyn]

I have some sympathy for modern mechanics, who aren't trained to diagnose and repair.. They are in the parts replacement biz these days.

However (there's always a 'however'), The 1ZZ went in the RAV4,  the Avensis, the Celica and close variants thereof went into just about every other Toyota for around ten years.  So it should not be such a mystery.  Same electrics, same mechanicals.

Whether the engine is in front or back is irrelevant.

[wotugonado]

Fair point.
I do think access to things is a bit of an issue however, I remember my mechanic thinking something was simple until he had to access it.