Are Springs a Mod?

[Johnny5]

Hi All,
I hope this unseasonably nice Sunday finds you all in fine fettle.

Got a question.  Car, 56 plate and 24k, currently has totally standard suspension, and I'd like to improve handling further.  It handles OK, but IMO could be a little sharper/more confidence inspiring.  Whether that's down to it never having had a proper alignment or that it just needs lowering, I do not know.  But I'm leaning towards doing both.

I want to avoid adding any performance mods, as the insurance company I'm with have already told me they won't touch any performance mods, either extra grunt or suspension mods that enable faster cornering.  They do me a very good price, including business use, and I'd like to avoid changing companies.  But, I have heard that the Toyota TTE lowering springs were an option rather than a mod.

So questions are:

1.  Are the TTE springs technically an option, or a mod, and would I have to inform/change insurance companies?

2.  Are the TTE springs still available new?

Many thanks

[shnazzle]

Whether it's an option or a mod is irrelevant after it leaves the factory. So, it's a modification.

Nope, the TTEs are no longer available unless you can find a box somewhere in Japan.
But legend has it that they're just Eibach springs.

Tein springs are arguably better anyway and are 120 for a set

[Joesson]

You've not mentioned something that is perhaps the starting point for good handling and that is the tyres. From my own experience and what I've read on here there is a lot of difference between unmatched, indifferent tyres, and matched good quality tyres. These would be a "mod" / performance enhancement that your Insurer will have no problem with.

[1979scotte]

Unlikely any insurance company would know the difference between stock and modified springs.
Fitting a set of Yokohama AD08R for summer use would improve handling immeasurably.

[Joesson]

Pleased that you" like" that Johnny, there is lots to read about which tyres are " best",  the answer I believe is not least of all determined by the depth of one's pockets.

[Topdownman]

Go on moneysupermarket and declare lowering springs as the only modification and I am sure you will have loads of offers.

[Ardent]

J5
I know where you are coming from.
I am of the opinion it is an option not a mod as could be specified.
And you could produce the options list to back up your point. Available on here. Or ping me.
Much the same with the turbo. A mere optional extra.

If handling is not right. A suspension refresh, fresh tyres and a quality geo will transform it.

If you declared downgraded, performance reducing tyres, would you get a reduction in price?

Are high quality tyres a performance or safety enhancement?

[delhusband]

Don't do what I did - i.e. Tell the insurer about lowered springs as they were being put on the car. That particular insurer wouldn't cover them at all, so they advised I'd have to cancel the policy, accept partial refund for remaining insurance period, and wave goodbye to almost reaching 1st year no claim bonus entitlement.    Get a quote upfront before fitting them (although most people probably would. I'm just a bit thick  )

[Johnny5]

Pleased that you" like" that Johnny, there is lots to read about which tyres are " best",  the answer I believe is not least of all determined by the depth of one's pockets.

Yeah, good point re tyres.  I'm currently on all season, effectively winter, tyres.  I'll be switching to summer, which I haven't bought yet.  I'm on the lookout for a second set of wheels, and will hopefully be putting on summer tyres in the next 4-6 weeks.  The all season tyres I'm on right now, Vredestein Quatrac 5, are, according to tyrereviews, the best steering feel and dry handling of any siped (snow) tyre available in our size.  But they are still a compromise in terms of subjective feel next to any half decent summer tyre.  So, on reflection, perhaps I should reserve judgement until I've swapped over to summer rubber.  Have thought about the much vaunted Yoko AD08Rs, but, as this is a daily driver and I don't want any hairy moments in the rain, I'm looking at something with better aquaplaning resistance.  Torn between Uniroyal Rainsport 3 and Continental Premium Contact 2.  Sounds like the former would be better in the wet, while the latter would still be satisfactory in the wet, and better in the dry.

[Ardent]

J5
do not rule out out the yoko. They work perfectly well in the wet.

[Dougster7]

J5
do not rule out out the yoko. They work perfectly well in the wet.

They are actually pretty amazing in the wet, AD08's. Attended a summer track night that was so wet the tracks of the car in front were filled in within a second the rain it was coming down that heavy. I was so cautious to begin with (having read lots of stories about them) but turned out just about every bit as good as driving on a dry track. VERY impressed with them rain or shine


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[shnazzle]

It's just cold that kills them. Wet is OK. Wet and cold is  no no

[cptspaulding]

Tein springs are arguably better anyway and are 120 for a set

Having fitted (new) Eibach springs with (new) stock struts previously, I would wholeheartedly agree. Even the race engineer who did the geometry afterwards said too much spring & not enough damping.

Mrs D's 2 is currently on new struts & Tein springs. They're much better suited.

[james_ly]

Personally I would think you'd be ok not declaring them as long as they are black springs and look OEM - I can't see an assessor getting out a tape measure to prove it's lowered when it looks pretty standard?
However, if it's a second car then a specialist insurance policy is best, and they won't charge extra for mods like that..

[shnazzle]

Just to be clear... The Club does not condone the practice of not declaring modifications.

[Call the midlife!]

Picture the scene, you crash into another vehicle and both vehicles are badly damaged and recovered. Your insurance assessor visits the salvage yard and sees a shiny, new spring/shock through the gap where the wheel should be and realises it's not stock issue (it's their daily job, they see things like that).
Quick check of the paperwork and your insurance is null and void and you're in the small claims court for vehicle loss and the inevitable injuries etc. And bankruptcy follows...


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[james_ly]

Picture the scene, you crash into another vehicle and both vehicles are badly damaged and recovered. Your insurance assessor visits the salvage yard and sees a shiny, new spring/shock through the gap where the wheel should be and realises it's not stock issue (it's their daily job, they see things like that).
Quick check of the paperwork and your insurance is null and void and you're in the small claims court for vehicle loss and the inevitable injuries etc. And bankruptcy follows...


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I'm not sure it's that black and white. What if for example, you had bought the car from a dealer, didn't know about it. Then you crash into a parked Veyron on the way home (while parking, so the suspension was not a factor). Would a judge rule in their favour and bankrupt you? Just playing devil's advocate (my mods are declared), must be 1000s of cars on the road with undeclared mods though.

[Call the midlife!]

Picture the scene, you crash into another vehicle and both vehicles are badly damaged and recovered. Your insurance assessor visits the salvage yard and sees a shiny, new spring/shock through the gap where the wheel should be and realises it's not stock issue (it's their daily job, they see things like that).
Quick check of the paperwork and your insurance is null and void and you're in the small claims court for vehicle loss and the inevitable injuries etc. And bankruptcy follows...


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I'm not sure it's that black and white. What if for example, you had bought the car from a dealer, didn't know about it. Then you crash into a parked Veyron on the way home (while parking, so the suspension was not a factor). Would a judge rule in their favour and bankrupt you? Just playing devil's advocate (my mods are declared), must be 1000s of cars on the road with undeclared mods though.

Totally hear where you're coming from, with a nod to caveat emptor, the insurers would be looking for the slightest feasible reason to get out of paying regardless of how the accident happened.
If the car isn't as described on the insurance schedule they're walking away, like you say you might get away with "to the best of my knowledge" but it's a gamble.


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[shnazzle]

Picture the scene, you crash into another vehicle and both vehicles are badly damaged and recovered. Your insurance assessor visits the salvage yard and sees a shiny, new spring/shock through the gap where the wheel should be and realises it's not stock issue (it's their daily job, they see things like that).
Quick check of the paperwork and your insurance is null and void and you're in the small claims court for vehicle loss and the inevitable injuries etc. And bankruptcy follows...


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I'm not sure it's that black and white. What if for example, you had bought the car from a dealer, didn't know about it. Then you crash into a parked Veyron on the way home (while parking, so the suspension was not a factor). Would a judge rule in their favour and bankrupt you? Just playing devil's advocate (my mods are declared), must be 1000s of cars on the road with undeclared mods though.

I'll back that up with a real story;
A relative of ours bought a car 2nd hand. A year later she was crashed into.
Insurance process as usual until her insurance came back with a letter about undeclared aftermarket modifications. Her alloys.
She had absolutely no idea and frankly they looked stock.
It took a year and a bit to finally win the court case that there was no way for her to know that those alloys weren't standard when she purchased the car.

So yes, in the end she won, but over a year of no payout for the damages caused to her car by a 3rd party.
Could you be bothered?

Remember, insurance companies are in the business of collecting as much premium as possible but paying out as little as possible

[Johnny5]

It sounds like I would have to buy aftermarket and not TTE, in which case it would be a mod and I assure you all I would declare that, IF I do it - a new set of boots might be enough to satisfy me.  But, if I do do it, I'll have to change insurers.  And, in that case, I might as well start thinking about a whole host of mods

[Call the midlife!]

It sounds like I would have to buy aftermarket and not TTE, in which case it would be a mod and I assure you all I would declare that, IF I do it - a new set of boots might be enough to satisfy me.  But, if I do do it, I'll have to change insurers.  And, in that case, I might as well start thinking about a whole host of mods

Go on, you know you want to..
As an aside, I'm with Admiral multicar at the moment and they mod friendly and reasonable prices but you need to reject their first quote.


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[shnazzle]

I had the same. Had to switch insurer when I installed my TTE brace

[Call the midlife!]

I had the same. Had to switch insurer when I installed my TTE brace

I might try one of the others for an agreed valuation once I'm back on the road, Admiral are fine with mods but won't add any value to the vehicle.


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[Ardent]

Toyota offered the tte spring as a
Manufacturers option.
Declare it as such. The youngest are 13 yr old. How many original bills of sale are still with the car. Who truly knows what  car was specified with what. Where does the burden of proof lie?

Taking the above insurance assessor and the spring scenario. You could well apply that to tyres.
How many here are running non stock sizes? How many are running tyres with the incorrect load or speed rating?
Anyone thats running the falkens on the front for a start. The load rating is higher, therefore not to spec. Insurance null and void.

[Ardent]

It sounds like I would have to buy aftermarket and not TTE, in which case it would be a mod and I assure you all I would declare that, IF I do it - a new set of boots might be enough to satisfy me.  But, if I do do it, I'll have to change insurers.  And, in that case, I might as well start thinking about a whole host of mods

If a car with tte springs broke a spring due to increased potholes and concrete obstacles in the middle of the carriageway.
Is it not reasonable to replace it with the equivalent new spring?