Apexi PFC Mapping

Gaz2405 · July 17, 2019, 13:44

As some will know I'm currently mapping my own APexi on my 1ZZ turbo conversion.

However, I'm after some recommendations for tuners who map using or have used before (on 1ZZ turbos)

Don't mind travelling, I was going to go to one local to myself, but after some deliberation I'd rather go further afield for someone who specialises in Mr2's.

So lets have them......

shnazzle · July 17, 2019, 13:51

Noble Motorsport?

1979scotte · July 17, 2019, 15:51

Seven Motorsport maybe they sell their own Rotrex kits for 1zz with apexi pfc.

thetyrant · July 17, 2019, 16:39

Lee at http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/ knows these cars/engines inside and out, mainly celicas and 2zz but i had a good long chat with him about forced induction on the 1zz and he seemed to know his stuff on that as well, i think problem is getting in to do it as like a lot of these successful specialist they soon got snowed under, worth a call though he will glady chat about options and worth the wait to get it done tight imo, i used to travel 300 mile round trip to get my old Evo mapped by the best in the business before i started self mapping it.

Ian

Call the midlife! · July 17, 2019, 19:03

Quote from: thetyrant on July 17, 2019, 16:39Lee at http://www.se7enmotorsports.co.uk/ knows these cars/engines inside and out, mainly celicas and 2zz but i had a good long chat with him about forced induction on the 1zz and he seemed to know his stuff on that as well, i think problem is getting in to do it as like a lot of these successful specialist they soon got snowed under, worth a call though he will glady chat about options and worth the wait to get it done tight imo, i used to travel 300 mile round trip to get my old Evo mapped by the best in the business before i started self mapping it.

Ian

Fairly confident they don't do their own tuning though, they use a lad in Doncaster that I took mine to when I had the Apexi on but I'd struggle to recommend him myself.

m1tch · July 18, 2019, 07:45

I think I have a spare turbo map for the PFC somewhere, won't be perfect but might be a good start.

Gaz2405 · July 18, 2019, 13:41

Thanks M1tch, car is already running pretty good, just wanted to go somewhere to get it done by a 'pro'.

Although the more I think about it, the more I think I'll just get a power run done and keep road mapping myself.

shnazzle · July 18, 2019, 14:00

Quote from: Gaz2405 on July 18, 2019, 13:41Thanks M1tch, car is already running pretty good, just wanted to go somewhere to get it done by a 'pro'.

Although the more I think about it, the more I think I'll just get a power run done and keep road mapping myself.

There's a lot to be said for that.

Get a wideband and road tune it yourself. Particularly idle and transitions as those can't be done on dyno anyway.

Then for the areas where you can bust a conrod, go to a pro

m1tch · July 18, 2019, 16:06

Quote from: Gaz2405 on July 18, 2019, 13:41Thanks M1tch, car is already running pretty good, just wanted to go somewhere to get it done by a 'pro'.

Although the more I think about it, the more I think I'll just get a power run done and keep road mapping myself.

Get Co-pilot setup and plug the wideband O2 sensor into it and get some logs sorted for fueling and ignition timing etc - what have you done with the VVTi map btw?

Gaz2405 · July 18, 2019, 20:21

I did look at Co Pilot and have a copy ready to play with. But thought I'd first get used to the standard software in FC Edit.

I have wideband connected and after some trial and error and scrolling old forum posts now have it reading the same on both the log and the gauge.

I've been logging quite a few miles, maybe a hundred or so, I tend to do short runs/pulls and check and amend the map at the side of the road.

I've got my knock levels to where i want them (max under 25).

It's now a case of bring out some fuelling to get towards an AFR across the board I'm happy with (circa 12-12.5 wot) and also change the 2zz injectors out to the 630's I've got as I'm over 90% duty over 4.5k.

Timing has been advanced quite a bit compared to the base map I used, it looked very conservative.

Re:vvti map, I've ran a couple of different base maps on this differing around 10 degs in total, but in all honesty could tell the difference on the road.

I think I'll stick with my original plan and continue to map it myself. Take it for a power run at a rolling road to see what the curve is like and go from there.

Worst case it'll either blow up or I'll have to spend a few hundred on a mapping session.

shnazzle · July 19, 2019, 06:45

Without a dyno there is no way you can get the best out of the tune as, without either well-placed per-cylinder EGT sensors or in-cylinder pressure sensors, you can't find the MBT point for load areas so you're guaranteed to be leaving power on the table.
But, you can achieve a hell of a lot on a road dyno.
Hell, I'm sure some top fuel drag cars are "road tuned" because there isn't a dyno that can handle their power

m1tch · July 19, 2019, 07:53

Quote from: Gaz2405 on July 18, 2019, 20:21I did look at Co Pilot and have a copy ready to play with. But thought I'd first get used to the standard software in FC Edit.

I have wideband connected and after some trial and error and scrolling old forum posts now have it reading the same on both the log and the gauge.

I've been logging quite a few miles, maybe a hundred or so, I tend to do short runs/pulls and check and amend the map at the side of the road.

I've got my knock levels to where i want them (max under 25).

It's now a case of bring out some fuelling to get towards an AFR across the board I'm happy with (circa 12-12.5 wot) and also change the 2zz injectors out to the 630's I've got as I'm over 90% duty over 4.5k.

Timing has been advanced quite a bit compared to the base map I used, it looked very conservative.

Re:vvti map, I've ran a couple of different base maps on this differing around 10 degs in total, but in all honesty could tell the difference on the road.

I think I'll stick with my original plan and continue to map it myself. Take it for a power run at a rolling road to see what the curve is like and go from there.

Worst case it'll either blow up or I'll have to spend a few hundred on a mapping session.

If you use FC edit I might be able to help with a VVTi map and you could compare some of the settings on some of the turbo maps I have. I think I do have a turbo map that has been on the dyno so you might be able to see what sort of timing advance they have gone with etc coupled with a VVTi map - you could probably mix and match the map you have with other parts of the maps I have to get somewhere in the ball park.

Gaz2405 · July 19, 2019, 10:36

I think I may have that map already as well as the "turbo road" map.

I think you used to own the PFC I've actually got now?

To start with I gathered as many maps as I could through various different sources, both N/A and turbo.

Spent hours comparing them to get a general understanding and created my own base map from mixing and matching.

So far so good.

My only issue (well its not really an issue) is trying to find a definitive answer on what an acceptable knock level is on a PFC, I've trawled the celica forum in the states, but I'm wary of "forum experts" and "real experts". So I've gone with anything above 25 as being high in my books.

m1tch · July 19, 2019, 12:47

Quote from: Gaz2405 on July 19, 2019, 10:36I think I may have that map already as well as the "turbo road" map.

I think you used to own the PFC I've actually got now?

To start with I gathered as many maps as I could through various different sources, both N/A and turbo.

Spent hours comparing them to get a general understanding and created my own base map from mixing and matching.

So far so good.

My only issue (well its not really an issue) is trying to find a definitive answer on what an acceptable knock level is on a PFC, I've trawled the celica forum in the states, but I'm wary of "forum experts" and "real experts". So I've gone with anything above 25 as being high in my books.

I managed to get a few more maps from MWR as well as the guy who programmed the Co-pilot software, think its mainly 2zz maps though but I think there were a few 1zz tuned maps he sent me over.

mr9 · July 27, 2019, 09:34

Hijacking the thread a bit, I'm also looking at adding a turbo and mapping myself. I'm probably getting the ECUmaster but there are no base maps for 1zz, only 2zz.

I'll do all the research on mapping etc, but thinking of downloading the 2zz basemap for ecu master, and also the 1zz/2zz basemaps for apexi pfc and then adjust the ECUmaster to get a 1zz basemap.

Does this sound logical? I need to find if there's a way to view the pfc maps without an apexi ECU...

1979scotte · July 27, 2019, 10:17

Are you not UK based?

The ECUmaster UK deal includes mapping and fitting.

They have minimum 2 1zz turbo maps.

One for a tb2559 440 injectors and tiny intercooler ie sp240 kit.
The other is for a gt2554r with a bigger intercooler and 630cc injectors.

They possibly have others I am unaware of.

mr9 · July 27, 2019, 12:33

I'm on a budget so looking at a used ECUmaster classic right now and am also interested in learning to map anyway. While it won't be as good as an experienced pro it means if I upgrade my turbo or injectors etc, or up the boost I can just go back and play with th map.

Is this rrr engineering you are taking about? I can't find any specific information online about it

1979scotte · July 27, 2019, 12:41

Quote from: mr9 on July 27, 2019, 12:33I'm on a budget so looking at a used ECUmaster classic right now and am also interested in learning to map anyway. While it won't be as good as an experienced pro it means if I upgrade my turbo or injectors etc, or up the boost I can just go back and play with th map.

Is this rrr engineering you are taking about? I can't find any specific information online about it

It's forum specific in the group buy section.
You won't beat £1000 supplied fitted mapped and you get a black instead of a classic.

I have a classic myself as the group buy was not applicable as I have a V6. Best bang for buck out there IMHO.

shnazzle · July 27, 2019, 12:51

I really wouldn't worry about base maps.
It's the wiring that's challenging

1979scotte · July 27, 2019, 13:27

Quote from: shnazzle on July 27, 2019, 12:51I really wouldn't worry about base maps.
It's the wiring that's challenging

Another reason to take advantage of the GB

Carolyn · July 27, 2019, 13:37

Plus it's done on a dyno. Beats the hell out of driving around and attempting to map off logs generated randomly on the street.

Gaz2405 · July 28, 2019, 09:40

Like most have said the group buy is the one to go for.

I went apexi pfc for a couple of reasons:

1. I'm tight. (I've bought and built my turbo 1zz for around £5k including the car)
2. It'll do what I need it to do.
3. I wanted plug and play looms.
4. Wanted to map myself.
5. I actually enjoy the road mapping side of logging runs and tweaking the map.
6. It's not a daily driver for me.
7. Meant I didn't have to trailer the car anywhere, everything was done in my garage at home.
8. If I break it tunung it, its not the end of the world. I have mountain bikes worth more, that take more abuse 😂

shnazzle · July 28, 2019, 12:39

Quote from: Gaz2405 on July 28, 2019, 09:40Like most have said the group buy is the one to go for.

I went apexi pfc for a couple of reasons:

1. I'm tight. (I've bought and built my turbo 1zz for around £5k including the car)
2. It'll do what I need it to do.
3. I wanted plug and play looms.
4. Wanted to map myself.
5. I actually enjoy the road mapping side of logging runs and tweaking the map.
6. It's not a daily driver for me.
7. Meant I didn't have to trailer the car anywhere, everything was done in my garage at home.
8. If I break it tunung it, its not the end of the world. I have mountain bikes worth more, that take more abuse 😂

I totally see the benefits of the apexi on face value. It plugs in as a standalone unit and runs everything on the dash.

But...
ECUMaster classic is 600 shipped incl tax. You don't need any fancy controller or anything. The tuning software is free and is frequently updated with new features.
Plug/play harness is available from RRR engineering. It keeps your stock ECU to control certain things, even immobiliser, which the apexi doesn't.
The ecumaster is much easier to map and has much much more advanced protection and safety mechanisms.
Amazing support community for the ecumaster with very active and helpful Facebook group.
So to be honest, all your points seem to match the ecumaster more.

Two downsides, if you can call them that, to the ecumaster are
1) it doesn't support MAF fueling strategy. Which I thibk is a good thing anyway and it has a built in MAP sensor anyway.
2) you have to retain your stock ECU as well. Again, is it really a downside? It takes up so little space. The ecumaster box is miniscule.