Ignition timing

[Petrus]

The ignition timing is regulated by the ECU departing from the signal from the crankshaft position sensor.

The timing is programmed for a lower octane rating than we have availeble in Europe.

Those with additional motormanagement report that even the slightest advance of the ignition improves running, especially responsiveness.

The (in)famous MAF modification seeks to do the same.

The Renix electronic ignition on our ralley Volvo is basically identical, just without any other sensor inputs.
By simple interchanging the wires of the sensor, the ignition is advanced by 2 degrees and it is definitely noticable; a known ´sports´ mod.

Has this been looked into by the MR community? Either the suoersimple wire swap or rather more involved moving of the sensor?

[Carolyn]

I just looked up Japanese petrol quality.

99 - 101 RON.

JDM cars have a different ECU.  Most people who have driven my car think it's a bit more pokey than EU spec.  I've tended to put that down to the gearbox. 

The Euro cars, apparently, have a Euro-specific ECU.

So I'm taking issue with your theory, Petrus.

[Petrus]

I just looked up Japanese petrol quality.

99 - 101 RON.

JDM cars have a different ECU.  Most people who have driven my car think it's a bit more pokey than EU spec.  I've tended to put that down to the gearbox. 

The Euro cars, apparently, have a Euro-specific ECU.

So I'm taking issue with your theory, Petrus.

Please enlighten me.
What I thínk to read confirms what I write; that the JDM ECU is for higher octane fuel, probably with a more advanced ignition timing and that would be ok on the 98 available here.

The manual of mine says 95 is ok so that leaves ignition advance on the table with the 98 I can tank here.

Since it is such a quest to coax any more horse from the 1ZZ stable it is a thought, more so because it worked a treat on the 340.

[Carolyn]

My feeling is that, without quite major engine mods and considerable expense, coaxing BHP out of the 1ZZ is a fool's errand.  The return diminishes so fast.

[jonbill]

Reversing the polarity on the vr sensor I think effectively reads the alternate edge of the trigger wheel tooth.
I.e. If the ecu thinks it's reading the rising edge of a tooth, if you reverse the polarity it actually reads the next (or maybe previous!)  leading edge. So whether it advances ign by 2 or whatever depends on the trigger wheel Shape.
I've also read it makes the signal noisier/more error prone for the ecu and should be avoided, but the signal processing details are well beyond my skill and understanding.
But I won't be doing it

[Petrus]

My feeling is that, without quite major engine mods and considerable expense, coaxing BHP out of the 1ZZ is a fool's errand.  The return diminishes so fast.

No disagreement there.
Still leaves your more pokey JDM with a different ECU for 99 octane fuel versus the EU one for 95 RON.
This would also go a small step to explaining the extra horses meaured by Rogue for the VM180.

Íf my reasoning is correct, then the availeble horses could stretch their legs a bit more with the ignition set for 98.

I totally agree Jonbill; on the 340 the simple Renix the timing could be checked with a strobe.
Hence my question whether the crankshaft sensor thing had been looked into?
For all I know the Toyota sensor already has them ´reverse´.

[jonbill]

Reversing the polarity on the vr sensor I think effectively reads the alternate edge of the trigger wheel tooth.
I.e. If the ecu thinks it's reading the rising edge of a tooth, if you reverse the polarity it actually reads the next (or maybe previous!)  leading edge. So whether it advances ign by 2 or whatever depends on the trigger wheel Shape.
I've also read it makes the signal noisier/more error prone for the ecu and should be avoided, but the signal processing details are well beyond my skill and understanding.
But I won't be doing it

Actually, thinking about that a bit more, it's not reading a different bit of tooth, it just inverts the signal which will change timing by tooth width/2.
1zz has a 36-2 wheel I think, so that would be a 5 degree shift.

[Petrus]

Actually, thinking about that a bit more, it's not reading a different bit of tooth, it just inverts the signal which will change timing by tooth width/2.
1zz has a 36-2 wheel I think, so that would be a 5 degree shift.

Hmm... that is a bit much.
On the 340 it is triggered by the starter ring teeth.

Unfortunately the fitment of the sensor is not easy to modify. Not the simple two screw holes of old which could be slotted to your heart´s desire.

[Carolyn]

So the ECU sees a different crank position.  Then it sees a standard cam position.  It's not happy.  It messes with stuff... I suspect the final product may not be exactly as predicted.

[shnazzle]

Advancing creates more low down torque but your top end power suffers.
As was the case with carbs and changes like the MAF mod that do sweeping changes across the board.

That's why EFI is so powerful; intake, exhaust, piston crown and port design set aside, you can advance timing lower down for more torque and pull that back higher up in the rpm and loads to get higher HP.
It's one or the other with sweeping changes via MAF mod, cams, carbs etc.

There's definitely low/mid grunt to be had from advancing a few degrees (about 3deg is noticeable in our cars). But when the RPMs go up, you'll want to pull that back as you're actually firing too early and missing the MBT point.

The timing is lowered by Toyota for knock protection as well, but primarily for emissions I reckon. Which may explain why the JDM ecus in both 1zz and 2zz are a bit pokier. Less care for emissions, more care for consumption. Advancing = lean burn. Lean burn = less fuel. Lean burn = higher emissions.

[m1tch]

I just bump the ignition timing in the map I did look into how I might be able to change the ignition timing on the stock ECU, it can be easily done on the mk1 MX5 by simply tuning the CAS slightly which then moves where the engine thinks the ignition is - think the bump was around 2-4 degrees safely.

I was looking at ways to do it with the 1zz easily but with a COP setup as well as fixed sensors there isn't really a way to be able to move the sensors in relation to the crank/cam teeth etc.

I believe I have bumped the timing on my engine by around 4 degrees and there is an improvement to pickup.

[shnazzle]

Messing with crank signal also fecks with your vvti remember...
So, double whammy of potential bad/unknown results.

[Petrus]

Messing with crank signal also fecks with your vvti remember...

Thát I am not aware of. Have not looked into how that works on Toyotas. I fear that the i stands for intelligent = electronics = CPU...

edit: It does and nów I understand Carolyn´s observation. Yes; messing witrh the crankshaft position messes up the camshaft position.
Righ. That is settled than: No go.

Thanks Mitch.
Also, the knock sensor is a bit of a safety valve.
Indeed, can not see a reasonable way of shifting the sensor position. Túrning I could make work reasonably easy but then.. what effect would that have?

[shnazzle]

Messing with crank signal also fecks with your vvti remember...

Thát I am not aware of. Have not looked into how that works on Toyotas.

Thanks Mitch.
Also, the knock sensor is a bit of a safety valve.
Indeed, can not see a reasonable way of shifting the sensor position. Túrning I could make work reasonably easy but then.. what effect would that have?

Turning would have no effect at all as it's a vr sensor. It just reads magnetic field. All it's sensitive to is the distance from the wheel. But the only effect of going closer is interference, which would be bad   Going further away would mean missing timing and losing sync. 


All in all, the only way is to use electronics to make it "skip a beat". i.e. piggyback.
Or, fakery via airflow adjustments.

[Petrus]

All in all, the only way is to use electronics to make it "skip a beat". i.e. piggyback.
Or, fakery via airflow adjustments.

Nah.
The second is not worth the hassle and holes it creates.
Adding electronic is like a black hole sucking you in. And money.

I will keep weight watching ;-)
Just changed the fluid in the  front tubeless of the mtb. Going for another weight shedding spin when it cools down a bit.
Saw a loose spoke. It sits loose in the carbon rim.  A compañero in the cycling club does carbon stuff so is the go to for this. Will ask him about special bits too.

[Ardent]

I love reading this stuff.
Can follow it and understand it, could not explain to another.

Having read most threads today. For the second time today. The takeaway is. Stock is best.

[Ardent]

Might see about changing my username to stock

[shnazzle]

Might see about changing my username to stock

Says the man with a TTE turbo haha. 

But I guess that is stock in a way. It's how Toyota intended

[Ardent]

Merely an optional extra.

Just a straight forward "stock" TTE turbo. No after market 3rd party this or that. AS vanilla as it comes.

AS everyone tries to put their own stamp on thiers, I'm trying to keep mine as stock as I can. I have stumbled off the path a couple of times and swapped out the stock side repeaters for some smoked ones though and some aerotwin wipers. Hangs head in shame.
Must try harder.

[Dev]

All in all, the only way is to use electronics to make it "skip a beat". i.e. piggyback.
Or, fakery via airflow adjustments.

Nah.
The second is not worth the hassle and holes it creates.
Adding electronic is like a black hole sucking you in. And money.

I will keep weight watching ;-)
Just changed the fluid in the  front tubeless of the mtb. Going for another weight shedding spin when it cools down a bit.
Saw a loose spoke. It sits loose in the carbon rim.  A compañero in the cycling club does carbon stuff so is the go to for this. Will ask him about special bits too.

You should look into a used Camcon unit. These devices can be grafted in to the stock ECU and you can tune them the way you want by advancing or taking away timing and VVT adjustments. If you mess up its completely safe because you will have a CEL before any damage were to occur.
It should give you the kind of tuning flexibility you require on the cheap and you can simply turn it on or off to see if it made a difference.  The best part is no computer interface.

This is just an over priced example and I have seen them go for as low as $100 if you are patient.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CC-101-VVT-i-VTEC-POWER-CAMCON-AFC-V-AFC-2-Tuning-controller-Variable-valve-EMS/123715392242?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item1cce0312f2:g:v5sAAOSwn6JcJ135&enc=AQAEAAAB4BPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUaQg%2FUppah5fZgiMmwhS5i1%2BTdOBXjGuG5BbEmvDynXIlk0qrhO2RPjzvEpcDcQh%2FqnHdA3s00eqjDCKhl%2Bbi2QUHpC%2FnDvbeiBvsdDFan8rFwqQJgMsV8JDb2%2F7pDHAITgRZlUzcXvKarU733lbMR%2F3nWIuNPrknQF%2BALS%2BmOoMvK7t4X0nL7iyHWyjAG0qkPvCvXYYCHcofWSJttn%2Fd5ZoGYkGUj80wqoAcRtJ%2B0YOHTknvu9usyEjg36k20FT6AAnv9OLF%2BZQp6wFQWrlU8O604fe%2BI1hG1KgrHKrm04bCicS1KlziwQzaxu4gLhOrdldVcF0GN5SmlB17oVWWYSaw3u48nZRxugE6H6qyZdyE4ICfQG7xfW1hR%2F3ag7IZ7tPNHn9vy4pxJIfF2igNyRxR5%2BuJmMtg%2FEUMXaGB9STCue%2BbHFcng0FjN4LSvQOg0W4ZKiCSweTwCEZxGZL2neP%2FlTK4NCIzjZxi2otDJzlhCU%2FcYGsvTObuFlPJnu15cDlgE5QWH1aemtfjyxOM46sy7z71hRuHk6ACIHVpwxsbd9YEaroULYFVBc5onPIRcYcRU4%2FPITE58ivcpdmiozGP1Zvxl1k6kdDhF40YryA%3D%3D&checksum=1237153922422a7ff26c3b724700ab67e1afe1489cc8

[Petrus]

You should look into a used Camcon unit. These devices can be grafted in to the stock ECU and you can tune them the way you want by advancing or taking away timing and VVT adjustments. If you mess up its completely safe because you will have a CEL before any damage were to occur.
It should give you the kind of tuning flexibility you require on the cheap and you can simply turn it on or off to see if it made a difference.  The best part is no computer interface.

THANK YOU!!
Définitely will look into that.

[Dev]

You should look into a used Camcon unit. These devices can be grafted in to the stock ECU and you can tune them the way you want by advancing or taking away timing and VVT adjustments. If you mess up its completely safe because you will have a CEL before any damage were to occur.
It should give you the kind of tuning flexibility you require on the cheap and you can simply turn it on or off to see if it made a difference.  The best part is no computer interface.

THANK YOU!!
Définitely will look into that.

Most welcome. I believe it will also adjust fuel as well. I believe Camcon has a setting specific for the 1ZZ for more power so you have a good starting point. 

[shnazzle]

You should look into a used Camcon unit. These devices can be grafted in to the stock ECU and you can tune them the way you want by advancing or taking away timing and VVT adjustments. If you mess up its completely safe because you will have a CEL before any damage were to occur.
It should give you the kind of tuning flexibility you require on the cheap and you can simply turn it on or off to see if it made a difference.  The best part is no computer interface.

THANK YOU!!
Définitely will look into that.

Most welcome. I believe it will also adjust fuel as well. I believe Camcon has a setting specific for the 1ZZ for more power so you have a good starting point. 

I remember the old rots talking about this, in association with the emanage blue. I guess the V-manage wasn't out yet then.

[Dev]

You should look into a used Camcon unit. These devices can be grafted in to the stock ECU and you can tune them the way you want by advancing or taking away timing and VVT adjustments. If you mess up its completely safe because you will have a CEL before any damage were to occur.
It should give you the kind of tuning flexibility you require on the cheap and you can simply turn it on or off to see if it made a difference.  The best part is no computer interface.

THANK YOU!!
Définitely will look into that.

Most welcome. I believe it will also adjust fuel as well. I believe Camcon has a setting specific for the 1ZZ for more power so you have a good starting point. 

I remember the old rots talking about this, in association with the emanage blue. I guess the V-manage wasn't out yet then.

Its long been forgotten. The interesting thing about the Camcon is that there are many used ones in the wild because the same unit is used for Honda applications. 
You can tune  it on the fly as a driver which is appealing but you can also do the same with the PFC commander but its too complicated.   

[Call the midlife!]

I know just where there's an Emanage Blue sat doing nothing too, should you wish to long term borrow one for research porpoises...