Ponderings on softer

[Petrus]

Even though our MR2 Spyder is a sports car in the purist, most authentic meaning of that, it also is am affordable runabout; a róad car for the general public.

As such it is developed to be the optimal for the average user on the public roads. The development of the model, albeit sparse, points in this direction too: The FL is slighty beefed up and just that bit less oversteered still.

So; a compromise.
Thínk about that a moment.
It means the optimal for the market, the circumstances; a balance between properties.
THÍNK about that.
Poor yourselves a proper coffee and play with the thought.

Average driver, average road, optimum compromise.
Now WHY are ALL the availeble mods only going in ÓNE direction; that of perceived sportyness i.e. smoother tarmac and nothing towards more comfort, worse surfaces, better compliance??

It gets worse still:
Toyota sold the car on summer rubber, with the suspension optimalised for those.
Many a user would fit all weather or worse still cheaper tyres, both needing a SOFTER!! setting.

You see what I am getting at?
The starting point is a compromise. This per definition means one can, shoúld, go either way if circumstances change either way.
Most car folk are aware that for rain an F1 car of GP bike is fitted with more profile and softer suspension settings.
Yet when dealing with a sporty road car it is near impossible to point out that OEM springs/dampers are quite hard enough for all weather. Never mind badly maintained real world roads in winter.

All in all I find it weírd that áll ´go faster´ stuff only goes one way; the far from always faster stiffer way.

By and large I again blame motoring journalists. I can come up with only two examples pointing the softer way; James May with his lambasting the Nürburgring craze and a funny video of ´monkey´ playing with an AMG on four emergency wheels.

[james_ly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kQrbPEXKU

[steveash]

I think our cars attracted mostly daily users when they were new whereas now they are mostly used as an extra car for occasional use. As a result they tend to be used for a different purpose. Plus, with warranties long expired and depreciation due to modifications less of an issue we can tinker away without much worry.

It is interesting that in general there aren't many comfort based car modifications but perhaps that is down to the easy availability of cheap older luxury cars but not much in the way of affordable focused sports cars?

[Petrus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kQrbPEXKU

THANK you Sir.

Spot on what I mean. Very, véry pleased with your link. Truely enjoyed it.

This underlines my question; why, oh whý?

[steveash]

Looking at the video, this is similar to the theory behind the set up of the GT86. The tyres are narrow to allow it to slide around more. Unfortunately most drivers (myself included) aren't up to handling a car beyond its limits and need as much grip as possible!

[Petrus]

Unfortunately most drivers (myself included) aren't up to handling a car beyond its limits and need as much grip as possible!

More unfortunate still is the inherent problem with raising grip/performance levels.
Toyota shot themselves in the one foot with the Mk.2 MR2 and subsequently in the other by improving the car. They ended up canceling the car for the US.
By providing more grip, the speed/violence of crossing the limit increases too; i.e. the width of the waring/correction band gets narrower.
See the issue for the average driver?

The mistake you make is the ´handling a car beyond it´s limits´ perception.
The crux is that it is safer to have a wider band of warning/correction. Heck, it is even safer to have lower limits period as thus speeds will be lower thus everything slower with less energy, way easier to control and more gentle when things do go pear shaped.

Back to the MR2 (and Elise); for a normal driver it is safer that the car warns earlier and is easier to correct over a wider safety band. That is éasier to drive, correct. Thát is the crux of the video.

[Carolyn]

In my experience a car has passed its limits when it's in the ditch!  If it's still on the road, pointing in the right direction and not hit owt, you might have brown pants but you were within limits.   Seriously, though, ten-tents, or even nine-tenths driving on public roads is dumb and dangerous.  If a car feels like it might bite you at any point, it's not set up for the public roads.

My fresh stock suspension, slightly tall front tyres, good all-weather rubber and bracing that actually smooths the bumps, all make for a fantastic real-world driver's car that will not bite.

Stay safe peeps.

[Petrus]

and bracing that actually smooths the bumps,

OUCH!!!
I know you know they do not but the less technically versed may infer that bracing has anything to do with suspension.
That apart from us, although only éver so slightly!, disagreeing on the subject for road use ;-)

Back to the subject I remember an ancient comparison, from well into the previous century, between a factory tuned Mercedes 190 16 valver and some Porsche model. The 190 was quicker on track but the Porsche was unanimously preferred on the road as it had a way broader warning zone. In other words the limit of the 190 was further yonder but less easy thus safe to drive fast.
Mind you that is not adressing the (in)sanity of driving that fast on the public road. Thát is a whole different discussion. I cannot think of any 21st century car with unsafe handling at legal speed.

[Ardent]

I cannot think of any 21st century car with unsafe handling at legal speed.

Maybe me getting older, but I get all the thrills I require within the legal limit.
It may also be down to the age of the car.
I find new cars so isolating you lack that sense of Speed because you are insulated and isolated. The fact that you can often take the bends in a 2 at legal speed where newer cars cannot is another matter. (heavier?)
As my tagline, I may be short but I am not shallow, I know full well the MR2 has far more capacity and cornering ability then I have talent. To pretend otherwise on public roads would be foolish. I get great satisfaction in my cheap as chips underpowered 14-year old little Japanese hairdressers car that is all over modern more powerful cars like a rash in The Bends

[Petrus]

I get great satisfaction in my cheap as chips underpowered 14-year old little Japanese hairdressers car that is all over modern more powerful cars like a rash in The Bends

Hmmm. You dó have TTE turbo so that basically makes ricers! of us n.a. car drivers ... :-O


And concerning modern more powerful cars, well, there are some really hót hatches here in the village that are rather impressive on the local roads and appearantly disgustingly easy to drive that fast. By Jove those new superboxes are góód (albeit HÉAVY).

[Ardent]

Dear @Petrus

I think before you were a member here, we had a "car limits" day.

Pulling a few things together. At the time, I had recently fitted the Yoko AD08r. The video above reinforces my take away from the day.
The tyres offer exceptional grip and cornering ability, until they don't. When they let go, they let go, instantaneously, there is no warning, no, we are now moving into the lack of grip zone you may wish adjust your approach.
Then again, that could just be my lack of talent.

But echos what you and the video allude to. The margin for error (lack of talent) is narrow. Perhaps better to have a more sympathetic tyre that warns you first, it is going to smack you in the face.
Rather than relying on the capabilities of the grippy tyre to keep me out the ditch

[Petrus]

I think your example of the AD08Rs is very apt:
I hope I can express myself clearly in a foreign language...
Ok, the speed a tyre lte´s go can be expressed as a the rate of the slip angle change.
It stands to reason that the sáme rate at twice the speed happens twice as quickly.
As you know I delayed replacing the downright áwfull cheap rubber my car came on and that was exactly because of the above.
The tyres let go relatively quickly, thus at a high rate, at disappointingly slow speed. Because of the latter, the real time I had was rather ample.
The ADo8s I have fitted now give say twice (it is more but it is for example sake) more grip. Thus cornering speed is twice as high, the same rate of letting go would give me half the time.
Now if they would be 90% slower in breaking out they would still give me less actual seconds to catch it.
Calculating this the other way around, with two times the grip almost the same response time would be half the rate. I.e. twice the grip, twice as easy on me while not giving me more seconds.

The crux it that going quicker equals less time to respond/correct even if the car is rélatively more forgiving.

The MR has a strong point which is an inherent downside.
It turns véry quickly around it´s centre of mass as that is near the middle.
This makes for quick steering...
and a quick rate of slip angle change.

See the compounded issue?
It corners relatively fast = less actual time to respond to unwanted changes.
It changes direction relatively fast = less time...
Now add grippy rubber increasing cornering speed = all things happening quicker still!!! 

This btw is also a very good explanation of why I deleted the power assistance. I now get the feedback directly, raw, unfiltered, undampened; power assistance works two ways! Your input amplified to the wheels means that the forces on the wheels are deminishes in your hands at the same rate.
I now feel any changes in grip or angle as much earlier as the pump assisted me before.
Same thing my corrections. It is as much easier to not overcorrect as the pump assisted me before.

Oh and braking HÁRD it is the same. Even when braking in an appearantly straight line I feel changes in grip = slip = direction as much earlier as... you get it.


Lastly: Try your brakes. Please, please pretty please find an empty place to experience the limits of your tyres, your brakes. This little cheap car punches well above it´s weight with the brakes. They are áwesome. Get confident to use them!

No, that was penultimate; lastly is ENJOY!!!! It is súch a delighful car.

[Petrus]

In the previous century I wrote an akin article about it for a motorcycle mag.
I invented an easy visualisation; the pear shape rate. Things going wrong quicker at the same rate as the increase of speed are neutral.
I got a bit lost, well, I did not but the explanation did, in the positive and negative. Just like a pregnancy test can.
Now I would call it the pear shape index. Neutal being 100. Higher is quicker is bad. Lower is... etc.

Back to the subject ´softer´ generally means slower, both in actual speed and a lower pear shape index.
This compounded wider margin of error/warning/correction may very well make the mere mortal driver go quicker.

Phew.
And now my wine....

[BahnStormer]

I found the AD08R's really progressive in the damp (provided it's not too cold).... and the grip level in the dry is so obscenely high that by the time they start to let go, the lateral load on the tyre is frankly ridiculous, so the speed that it lets go understandable... if you tyre pressures are wrong, expect the loss of grip to be anything but progressive!! As the tyre starts to lose grip, it deforms slightly and you suddenly lose a chunk of the contact patch, so you will go from bein gon the limit to way over it VERY quickly!!

funny video of ´monkey´ playing with an AMG on four emergency wheels.

Every time somebody talks about putting big wheels / wider rubber on their car (especially an MR2!), I send them that video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY

That said, I do like the car to feel taught... too much softness isn't great.... but pram-wheels allow you to have fun at significantly less crazy speeds....

[Petrus]

I found the AD08R's really progressive in the damp (provided it's not too cold).... and the grip level in the dry is so obscenely high that by the time they start to let go, the lateral load on the tyre is frankly ridiculous, so the speed that it lets go understandable... if you tyre pressures are wrong, expect the loss of grip to be anything but progressive!! As the tyre starts to lose grip, it deforms slightly and you suddenly lose a chunk of the contact patch, so you will go from bein gon the limit to way over it VERY quickly!!

That observed, the AD08R is not particularly brusque in letting go and you cán feel it coming; especially at the front you can feel/percive the onset of ´vagueness´ when they are at the limit.
Also when they let go, and you describe what happens accurately, they will recover if you give them the opportunity. Again that is most clearly felt/experienced at the front. At the back we encounter the inherent ´issue´ of our MR that it easily moves around the center of mass. It will behave like that with ány tyre and the higher the speed the shorter the time we have to correct.

It is worthwhile to understand hów these tyres achieve their grip; it is the high hysteresis of the rubber compound; the energy lost/dissipated/absorbed by the deformation. This is not just the shape oof the contact patch but more importantly the way the rubber (de)forms following the surface shape.
This energy dissipation is highest júst before exceeding the limit and is also on the limit of the integrity of the rubber itself; just before particles separate.
When óver that limit, the friction coefficient lówers a bit, hence ´brusque´ sliding. When watching powerfull motorcycles racing you can see the riders provóke the onset of sliding and try operate in the margin where they benefit from energy dissipation from material torn off yet stay on the bit befóre the coeffient takes a dive. The typical highside illustrates the sudden gaín of traction under lower load.

Under braking we can see the same. Optimal braking occurs when the rubber deforms, loses material but not lets go yet. That is the black stripe left without actually skidding.

Back to the rear end of our MR is means that we need to get sensitive to the ónset of max deformation. Oh and NÓT lift when we think we feel a twitch, éasy with the easing or just holding it.

[Beachbum957]

In my experience a car has passed its limits when it's in the ditch!  If it's still on the road, pointing in the right direction and not hit owt, you might have brown pants but you were within limits.   Seriously, though, ten-tents, or even nine-tenths driving on public roads is dumb and dangerous.  If a car feels like it might bite you at any point, it's not set up for the public roads.

There is an adage in racing.  You haven't really crashed until you hit something and stopped moving.  Being stuck in the ditch qualifies.

But I totally agree with " nine-tenths driving on public roads is dumb and dangerous".  Any speed that takes you out of your lane or requires too much road is potentially dangerous.

[Ardent]

I don't think it has been lost, but just for absolute clarity, the car limit day was precisely that, an area to find out where the limit is.
The high speed bend, was designed to provoke loss of traction.

[Ardent]

Would never approach anything like the speed required on the road.

[1979scotte]

Would never approach anything like the speed required on the road.

It was scary

Span so much the ecu thought I had an accident and fuel cut the car.

[Ardent]

Just watched the vid. Like that.

Going back to the Car limits day, At the time, I thought it made sense to get the AD08r on the car prior to the day, as they would be the tyre I would be using after. Still seems logical.

However, some years later (now) and a smidge wiser, it would have been better to have kept the old tyres on. In effect I unknowingly short changed myself, from getting the most out of the day.
In an ideal world, it would be great to rock up, and fit a set of knackered tyres for all the reasons laid out above.

All the above has made me reconsider my next tyre choice.
I cannot exploit the advantages of he yokos, so may save a few £££s and spend that on fuel instead.

[Petrus]

All the above has made me reconsider my next tyre choice.
I cannot exploit the advantages of he yokos, so may save a few £££s and spend that on fuel instead.

Mwah.
Have a look again at the summer/winter test.
Unless your average conditions are near/sub zero cccccold ánd wet, the AD08Rs offer better braking than all seasons throught most of the year. Well, with the caveat of cold tyres which applies to ány tyres apart from full snowies which are a NoNo on anything but snow.

Unless you swap a second set of rims with allweathers for the winter, the summer tyre is a stróng contender even if you are not rubbing the door latches on the tarmac; it is the few meters shorter braking distance that suit ányone.

[BahnStormer]

Unless your average conditions are near/sub zero cccccold ánd wet, the AD08Rs offer better braking than all seasons throught most of the year. Well, with the caveat of cold tyres which applies to ány tyres apart from full snowies which are a NoNo on anything but snow.

Unless you swap a second set of rims with allweathers for the winter, the summer tyre is a stróng contender even if you are not rubbing the door latches on the tarmac; it is the few meters shorter braking distance that suit ányone.

Anything below 5C and AD08R's need to be used with caution... all my comments about them letting go progressively refer to >10C air temps at at least...

I've got a set of 4 or 5yr old Conti summer road tyres that that still have good tread depth, but are looking a little long in the tooth.... a limits day sounds like the PERFECT opportunity - when is the next one?!?

Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer and I want to be able to feel as soon as the front starts "nibbling".... I've never had that on stock suspension (although admittedly you might on fresh, stock suspension).

[JB21]

If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.

I have zero comfort issues driving my track focused Roadster on the road fully braced, front and rear ARB's, stripped, super stiff AR1 track tyres with -4 rear/-2.5 front negative camber and Meister R coilovers on full soft.

Never driven a OE roadster but going from mine to OE spec would probably feel like a pudding anyway.

[Petrus]

Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer

That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.

[Petrus]

If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.

Well, why turn it into a plank if that only sharpens the edge?

My point was and is that OEM is a very good compromise and that compromise inherently means you can go either way depending on your priorities yet there is only lower/harder...