Dealer has my car, engine is being torn down.

Anonymous · July 14, 2005, 02:11

Background for people who didn't read my other thread:

Year: 2000
Miles: between 39k and 40k
Oil Change Interval: 3k-5k
Original Delivery Date: Feb 26, 2001 (so I'm within the 60month/60k mile powertrain warranty)

Over this past weekend, my engine developed a nasty ticking/clicking sound coming from the middle of the block. I hoped it was the belt tensioner, but it wasn't. Checked the oil and found that I was approximately 2 quarts low. It has been less than 2500 miles since my last oil change. Up to this point my car had no history of major oil consumption. If I went to 4k miles, I'd drain maybe a half a quart less than what went in 4k miles previously. Completely acceptable. Once I found this, I immediately topped off the oil level with 2 quarts of 5W30.

Since then I scheduled an appointment to have the car looked at, and have driven it only to and from work (less than 2 miles).

Toyota now has my car. They gave it an external inspection, and of course could tell nothing. I received a call today asking me to authorize $780 for an engine tear down. If the repair is found to be covered under warranty, this fee is waived. If it is found to be user negligence or abuse, I am liable for the fee.

Rather than discuss this over the phone, I went into the dealer to talk face to face. The service attendant, writer, whatever they're called, explained the they're responsible/I'm responsible part, etc. I asked what they'd look for to determine it was negligence/abuse and she said that they'd look for things like bearing damage, and other items that would usually be attributed to oil starvation. I then explained to her that I was disturbed by the number of reports of engines dying of oil starvation, and the precat issue (I didn't get a chance to look at my precats as I don't have a 22mm o2 socket). Of course she knew nothing of these problems. She now has the URL of this board so she can check it out for herself.

I then requested to speak to one of the service techs who had been working on my car and asked him what he expected to find in engine internals, based upon the symptoms I had described, and the sound that the engine was making. Anyone care to guess what his answer was? Anyone? Yes, he believed it was most likely a bearing issue, as I feared.

Since the tech is in no position to decide warranty issues, I then requested to speak to the service manager. I explained the catch-22 that I seem to be in, since the damage that could have been caused by sudden oil starvation (and I'd consider 2qts in < 2500mi sudden when there was no prior history of consumption) could also be attributed to owner negligence if they want to be hard asses about it.

He basically told me that there was nothing he could do until the actual damage was known. He also stated that responsibility for problems caused by low oil/oil starvation are usually automatically placed on the owner, and not on Toyota. When asked why no oil light or check engine light came on, he replied that basically when the oil light comes on it's too late. He stated that as long as there's enough oil to maintain some oil pressure, the light remains off. This is something that has already been covered on this board. He further explained that this is how "most modern cars worked." I asked why it is that a friend's '81 (I think) Corolla FX-16's oil light comes on when the engine is about 1.5 quarts down (when hopefully no damage should result), why can't a modern car have such a system. He didn't seem to have much of an answer to that.

So, I basically was left with no choice but to OK the charge and hope for the best.

Does anyone have an advice on how I should approach this tomorrow if they don't find in my favor? Contacts at Toyota service departments in the US that have dealt with similar problems that I could put my dealer in contact with?

Anything?

I'm getting ready to buy a huge tub of Vaseline, 'cause I can't help but feel like I'm going to need it by the time I'm done.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

Anonymous · July 14, 2005, 03:00

Well you have to wait for the stripdown and report.

If it is not in your favour, advise them in writing to stop all work and that you are going to consult an independant automotive engineer.

Get your Yellow Pages. Find an engineer, preferably qualified with professional automotive experience. Explain everything in your first post and any other useful info. He should then go and check the components himself and provide you with a report.

Theaten your dealer with legal action if he does not take your report's findings and forward them to the warranty dept.

Don't take any BS.

Anonymous · July 14, 2005, 03:04

Quote from: "peterguk"Get your Yellow Pages. Find an engineer, preferably qualified with professional automotive experience. Explain everything in your first post and any other useful info. He should then go and check the components himself and provide you with a report.

The major problem is that I'd have to pay them the $780 to get my car back so that I can have someone look at it... It's a nasty cycle...

Jap GT300 · July 14, 2005, 09:30

I didn't realise you were in the US. Have you checked out w www.spyderchat.com w it is US based and has lots of reports on engine failure.

I'm not surprised that they think the bearings are the issue before they've even looked inside the engine. From what i've seen on 2 stripped down engines that both had no precats. The bearings were in a terrible state both elongating the housing and disintergrating. I belive that this intern caused friction with the crank and corresponding parts to burn the oil that is lost. I think it is a get out if they are saying its the other way around (athough of course it would be possible)

Slacey · July 14, 2005, 09:34

He has already posted over at SC too...

darrenjuggins · July 14, 2005, 10:48

Hi,

An unfortunate position.

I can only talk from my experience with my engine. I had to authorise them to look at the engine, although I was a little more covered.... my 3 year warranty was up but I was covered by my extended warranty, so basically I was agreeing for one or the other to pay.

All I can say is that the engine faluire is a know problem in MR2 Roadster and Avensis using the same block.

Toyota are obviously dealing with each car on a case by case basis.

The precat's are most likely being destroyed by the amount of oil being sent into them. Therefore the oil loss will probably be based on a short block failure.

I would leave it with them and let Toyota Sort it.... in the UK we have a law that states something should last for a reasonable lenght of time - i.e. less than 5 years, I'm sure you have something similar in the states.

Good luck and you will find plenty of evidence on this web and SC about the faliures.

Cheers

Darren J

Anonymous · July 14, 2005, 14:14

Quote from: "Jap GT300"I think it is a get out if they are saying its the other way around (athough of course it would be possible)

Yeah, I'm not feeling terribly confident, since when I mentioned the problems reported here and on SC, they sort of looked at me like I was from Mars...

Anonymous · July 14, 2005, 14:14

Quote from: "Slacey"He has already posted over at SC too...

I figured as many sets of eyes and brains couldn't be a bad thing... s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

Anonymous · July 14, 2005, 14:18

Quote from: "darrenjuggins"I would leave it with them and let Toyota Sort it.... in the UK we have a law that states something should last for a reasonable lenght of time - i.e. less than 5 years, I'm sure you have something similar in the states.

Good luck and you will find plenty of evidence on this web and SC about the faliures.

I don't have any choice but to wait and see what conclusion they come to. If the decide against me, I have a binder full of printouts of reports of these types of failures...

Slacey · July 14, 2005, 14:27

Quote from: "Andy Somnifac"I figured as many sets of eyes and brains couldn't be a bad thing... s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

Don't worry; it's not a problem s:)

s:)

Anonymous · July 15, 2005, 16:11

Well, the dealer is going to cover the repair under warranty. Bearing #4 was shot. It's getting a new crank, bearings and rings.

Bad side is that they're looking at me like I'm a "problem customer" every time I mention that I want the precats checked out. They constantly saying "we've never seen that, I don't know where you're getting your information." They're basically resisting every request I make to visually inspect the precats myself.

I guess I may have to wait till the repair is completed and inspect them myself. If I find they're degrading, I'm definitely going to a different dealer.

markiii · July 15, 2005, 16:14

it's your car, and they will have to strip it down.

insist they allow you to see the manifold when off the car.

IS not preventing access to something you own without your permission theft?

Anonymous · July 15, 2005, 16:43

Quote from: "markiii"it's your car, and they will have to strip it down.

insist they allow you to see the manifold when off the car.

IS not preventing access to something you own without your permission theft?

I'm not sure if it could be construed as theft. I believe that, if requested, they would have to show me the damaged parts that were replaced, but I don't know if that extends to areas that they deem not connected to the issue...

Anonymous · July 15, 2005, 16:44

Quote from: "Andy Somnifac"Well, the dealer is going to cover the repair under warranty. Bearing #4 was shot. It's getting a new crank, bearings and rings.

Bad side is that they're looking at me like I'm a "problem customer" every time I mention that I want the precats checked out. They constantly saying "we've never seen that, I don't know where you're getting your information." They're basically resisting every request I make to visually inspect the precats myself.

I guess I may have to wait till the repair is completed and inspect them myself. If I find they're degrading, I'm definitely going to a different dealer.

Having gone through a similar problem only recently I would suggest inspecting the pre cats before you get the car back as mine had a new manifold installed when returned (Soon to be gutted)

Anonymous · July 15, 2005, 16:52

Quote from: "Beastie"
Quote from: "Andy Somnifac"Well, the dealer is going to cover the repair under warranty. Bearing #4 was shot. It's getting a new crank, bearings and rings.

Bad side is that they're looking at me like I'm a "problem customer" every time I mention that I want the precats checked out. They constantly saying "we've never seen that, I don't know where you're getting your information." They're basically resisting every request I make to visually inspect the precats myself.

I guess I may have to wait till the repair is completed and inspect them myself. If I find they're degrading, I'm definitely going to a different dealer.

Having gone through a similar problem only recently I would suggest inspecting the pre cats before you get the car back as mine had a new manifold installed when returned (Soon to be gutted)

I will certainly see if I can get through to the service manager. I'm not hopeful. I'm already not a "good customer" in their eyes, and every time I bring up anything related to the cats, I get the "the catalytic converter has an 8 year warranty, what are you worried about" sort of response...