MR2 Roadster Owners Club

Hello Folks!

Well I think it's been a day or two since I quizzed you wonderful lot, so I though perhaps I'd chance my arm if anybody can help me test/diagnose this problem:

Having been starting beautifully every time since I had it, on Friday morning, car took 4 crankings (is that a term?) to get it going, it turned over fine and strong but seemed to stutter out and sometimes would be left with an unhealthy high pitched grinding sound until I stopped turning the key. Did that 3 times, but I could tell it was close to sparking so I turned off and tried again and it sparked. he the ran no problems at all. Started it several times over the weekend hot and cold with no problems. Then today it happened again, 1st cranking it tried to start then spluttered, 2nd cranking tuned over a few times then sparked. I think could smell a whiff of petrol, but maybe that was because i was cranking it for a few seconds each time and even so it was very faint? Drove to shops and it started again lovely so it's one of those intermittent problems.

The only thing I can think is that the previous journeys on both occasions, I had been "spirited driving" the night before (so at least 12 hours before trying to start the car) Although that's not the 1st time I've done that, so probably adding 1 & 1 together and getting 4.

I put the ODBII on it and using Torque (lite) app it's saying faults recorded in the ECU.

Any tips what to try next? Or should I just forget about it as it may never happen again?  :-\

Could you read what faults were recorded?

Not an expert and it's hard by description.
Mechanical grinding noise is the only thing I can pick out. Sometimes when the starter doesn't engage properly you can get horrible grinding. That's "normally" low voltage or old starter motor.

I'd be leaning towards low voltage. Have you got any extras that could be leaching the power when it's off. Aftermarket head unit?
How old/ what condition is the battery?

How lively is the normal start?

Quote from: dan944 on June 18, 2018, 16:18
Could you read what faults were recorded?

Not an expert and it's hard by description.
Mechanical grinding noise is the only thing I can pick out. Sometimes when the starter doesn't engage properly you can get horrible grinding. That's "normally" low voltage or old starter motor.

I'd be leaning towards low voltage. Have you got any extras that could be leaching the power when it's off. Aftermarket head unit?
How old/ what condition is the battery?

How lively is the normal start?

Hi Dan, thanks so much for pitching in 😊

1 - There are no faults as far as I can see, but it's only the 2nd time I've even plugged in a reader.

2 - Yes that was what I was trying to describe. It's the starter motor, it didn't happen each time only once.

3 - No aftermarket electric items.

4 - I think the battery is 5 years old

5 - normal start is lively, and was after each of the incidents.

I'll get a battery tester on it 👍

Thanks again 👍

Quote from: je72 on June 18, 2018, 18:06

Quote from: dan944 on June 18, 2018, 16:18
Could you read what faults were recorded?

Not an expert and it's hard by description.
Mechanical grinding noise is the only thing I can pick out. Sometimes when the starter doesn't engage properly you can get horrible grinding. That's "normally" low voltage or old starter motor.

I'd be leaning towards low voltage. Have you got any extras that could be leaching the power when it's off. Aftermarket head unit?
How old/ what condition is the battery?

How lively is the normal start?

Hi Dan, thanks so much for pitching in [emoji4]

1 - There are no faults as far as I can see, but it's only the 2nd time I've even plugged in a reader.

2 - Yes that was what I was trying to describe. It's the starter motor, it didn't happen each time only once.

3 - No aftermarket electric items.

4 - I think the battery is 5 years old

5 - normal start is lively, and was after each of the incidents.

I'll get a battery tester on it [emoji106]

Thanks again [emoji106]

That's fine. Like I said I'm no expert, just enjoy conundrums and learning the symptoms/diagnosis.

Hmm. If it only happened once maybe it's not as relevant.

When was the last time it had a good service? Thinking spark plugs mainly. Tbh if it's intermittent and is just causing a sloppy start then it's probably a matter of going through the 3 necessities, spark,fuel,air and checking everything you can.

The grinding sounds like starter motor so I would start with the battery, they are relatively small and prone to becoming discharged if old or worn. 

Other advice is also good, spark fuel air.  On that front perhaps give the MAF a clean as the car might be registering the wrong air volume for fuel delivery.

Good luck

Quote from: dan944 on June 18, 2018, 18:28

When was the last time it had a good service? Thinking spark plugs mainly. Tbh if it's intermittent and is just causing a sloppy start then it's probably a matter of going through the 3 necessities, spark,fuel,air and checking everything you can.

It was serviced about 2k miles ago, but I can't tell you much about what was done as I only have the stamp in the book from a non Toyota garage. What has thrown me a little is that I feel that it's cranking well and as I said up until Friday it was a textbook starting, it's only happened twice in the 15 - 20 times I've started it since Friday. I'm going to test the battery tomorrow and see where I go from there :)

Quote from: paulj on June 18, 2018, 18:35
The grinding sounds like starter motor so I would start with the battery, they are relatively small and prone to becoming discharged if old or worn. 

Other advice is also good, spark fuel air.  On that front perhaps give the MAF a clean as the car might be registering the wrong air volume for fuel delivery.

Good luck

Cheers @paulj (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23628) I'll work through those things, but I'm half wondering if it'll be one of those little foibles that only raises it's head occasionally. I hope so anyway!

That's probably the best call. Process of elimination

You could also try cleaning the battery terminals and connectors.  Very often the cause of such behaviour.

Before I went to check my car this morning, I remembered that my mobile phone didn't seem to be charging very well the last couple of days when I used it with the in car charger. I had put it down to it being an old Galaxy S5 that has serious lag issues, I'd assumed it was running something in the background which was stopping it getting charged, or assumed the car charger might have been faulty. Didn't connect it to the starting problem. Then, we went out in my wifes's car today and tried charging with her charger, the phone charged fine. Could be a coincidence, but now I'm wondering if that could be connected? ( @dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) you had actually asked if I had any aftermarket items, I'd completely overlooked that as an issue)

So I went to start the car just now with a little trepidation, however he sparked almost instantly (like it has done 99% ish of time I've owned it)

I don't have a battery tester so decided to try to test it with my ODBII bluetooth dongle and Torque (lite) hey presto, I was getting between 13.9v - 14.1v when it was running. Which according to Google seems to be in the accepted range.

@Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) The battery terminals do look slightly mucky, so I'm going to give them a little clean.

I also noticed a "tapping" noise from cold and at idle and a very slight kind of "grinding" noise coming from the auxiliary belt area. Grinding is not the most technically accurate descriptions so I recorded it so that you can hear what I mean:

https://youtu.be/TT2x8tiO8tU

Carolyn already diagnosed a knackered auxiliary belt on ding day, so that's on my list to do once I get a breaker bar, but does that all sound normal?

I've also attached a screen grab for the ODBII with various parameters:

Hi folks, I had another dodgy start yesterday, car turned over then kind of stopped with a mild "clunk" from engine tried again, same problem, tried for a 3rd time and it sparked and off I went on my merry way. Upon my return I decide to remove battery and clean all terminals also recharged the battery to full (just to be sure) The battery looks pretty rough, it's obviously bubbled over at some point BUT it is holding a charge. Refitted battery, he started fast with maybe the hint of a "clunk"

Today however it will not start, I've got no clunks to speak of and the engine just carries on cranking until I lose my nerve and release the key. I tried 4 times, no spark.

Hooked up the ODBII to it and lo and behold I now have a fault code (it wasn't there when this started happening)

Fault Code: [P0340] Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Bank1 or Single Sensor

I've done a bit of googleing and everything seems to be suggesting replacing the sensor (which I have no idea how to do yet so if that's the solution I'll have to look that up too) but what if the sensor is trying to tell me something else, I'm now feeling very anxious about the clunking   :'( I really hope I haven't hurt him. Is there anything anybody could suggest other than getting it to a garage or getting a mobile mechanic to it?

If it's struggling to turn over, there may well not be enough electrical power to do that job and produce sparks. 

You could try jump-starting from another car or device to see what happens.

Sounds to me that your battery is struggling.

I would get the voltage right (new battery, I'm afraid) , clear the codes and then see what the story is.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 22, 2018, 10:48
If it's struggling to turn over, there may well not be enough electrical power to do that job and produce sparks. 

You could try jump-starting from another car or device to see what happens.

Sounds to me that your battery is struggling.

I would get the voltage right (new battery, I'm afraid) , clear the codes and then see what the story is.

Thanks for your input Carolyn  :notworthy: I'm not sure if you're replying to my last post or one earlier I *think" the battery is ok it's reading fully charged, car is cranking freely and as I mentioned I now have this new error code "Fault Code: [P0340] Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Bank1 or Single Sensor" I'm a bit unsure to go down route of battery if I have that fault code. Do you think the battery could be causing the sensor error?

It's hard to say.  Cam sensors rarely go wrong.  They do earth to the cylinder head, and if the engine is not earthing well...

My pint about the battery is it might be cranking the engine but running out of puff when it comes to doing more, which is why I suggested a jump-start.  If it fires up on a jump - suspect the battery.  If not, you need to delve further.  The starter motor could also be struggling...

There are a couple of little bundles of earths that bolt to the left-hand end of the cylinder head.  Worth checking and cleaning those.  Also you could take the connector of the cam sensor and check its resistance.  You might have to do a bit of Googling to know what the resistance should be. 

Of all the sensors, it's the easiest one to change. If it's bad. I can send you a good used one.

I take it you've actually pulled the plugs and checked for sparks visually?

It's one of those jobs that just takes a bit of patient, step-by-step elimination.

It's almost impossible to diagnose this from a distance!

Given your limited experience, a decent local mechanic might well be the best bet.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 22, 2018, 11:46
It's hard to say.  Cam sensors rarely go wrong.  They do earth to the cylinder head, and if the engine is not earthing well...

My pint about the battery is it might be cranking the engine but running out of puff when it comes to doing more, which is why I suggested a jump-start.  If it fires up on a jump - suspect the battery.  If not, you need to delve further.  The starter motor could also be struggling...

There are a couple of little bundles of earths that bolt to the left-hand end of the cylinder head.  Worth checking and cleaning those.  Also you could take the connector of the cam sensor and check its resistance.  You might have to do a bit of Googling to know what the resistance should be. 

Of all the sensors, it's the easiest one to change. If it's bad. I can send you a good used one.

I take it you've actually pulled the plugs and checked for sparks visually?

It's one of those jobs that just takes a bit of patient, step-by-step elimination.

It's almost impossible to diagnose this from a distance!

Given your limited experience, a decent local mechanic might well be the best bet.

Thanks again @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) especially as I know how un-rewarding it can be guiding a non-techie blindly through the process of troubleshooting issues. You are quite right though, I'm having to learn how to EVERYTHING (enjoying it so far) so best to assume no knowledge. I used to do PC support in large company, I've had my fair share of pandora's box conversations with people when I've been trying to resolve issues. So thanks again for bearing with me.

Update: Well I got him to start, pretty sure it was coincidental, as the fault has been intermittent so far anyway. Here's what I did:

1 - Decided to try to eyeball the Camshaft Sensor as another thread on here said he found his hanging out! I removed carbon canister trying to get an eyeball on the Camshaft sensor, I now realise I was barking up the wrong tree there, but I'm mentioning it just incase it's relevant. Re-attached the canister and she cranked a couple of times and then started!

2- I decided to drive to Halfords so that they could do a proper battery check, the guy hooked up a fancy looking tester and said the battery was good as it was reading 307 only down from 330. However he told me it was the original battery but I'm sure that's incorrect as it's a Lucas Premium LP053 and there's a receipt for it about 5 years ago. I think that rules out battery issue?

3 - I also eyballed the little bundle of wires you referred to in the left hand side of the head, which looked to be clean enough and were securely attached.

4 - Cleared the fault code: P0340

What I plan to do next if I get a recurrence (likely I think) from the various responses I have so far:

1 - Visually inspect the camshaft sensor and test it's resistance, just to rule it out. I think I've found it's location this time via this link https://workshop-manuals.com/toyota/mr2_spyder/l4-1.8l_(1zz-fe)/sensors_and_switches/sensors_and_switches_powertrain_management/sensors_and_switches_computers_and_control_systems/camshaft_position_sensor/component_information/locations/  It looks like it's going to be tricky to get a look at it. Maybe I should have bought that inspection mirror after all!  (:< >:)

2 - Then check the sparks (I'll be looking for a how to on that)

3 - Check the air filter & clean the MAF (Seen how to's on cleaning the MAF, but I need to find a source to learn about what to look for with air filters)

4 - Fuel pump, I think that'll be one for the garage

I'll update as I go :)

Glad you got it started.  Perhaps a loose hose on the canister??

Who knows.  The camshaft sensor ain't do bad to do.  Tale the plastic cover off and you should be able to get a 10 mm spanner at it - just one little bolt holding it in.  There are two bundles of earths attached to that end of the head.  Pays to unbolt them, give it all a good clean and do them back up.  Don't assume the earth is good by looking at it.

Yesterday I managed to check my camshaft sensor (with loads of help from my neighbour) According to material i've read, the resistance between the terminals should be:
Cold 835 - 1.400 Ω (-10°C to 50°C)
Hot 1.060 - 1.645 Ω (50°C to 100°C)

My reading was 1.151 which would appear to be within range for hot or cold. I'd just had to bump start it downhill to get it closer to home, but it had only been on for 1 minutes so pretty sure it should have been a closer to cold reading, that said it was within range for both. My neighbour who has been fettling engines for 30 years seemed to be think it was close to it's parameters, but it looks to be bang on to me.

When we put it all back together it started 1st time, so I thought yay we've fixed it. Alas today it's back to not sparking, I cleared the faults yesterday and the P0340 fault is back again today.

Next (I'm assuming the sensor is ok) is to clean the little bundle of wires earthed near the oil filler cap and check the spark plugs. Does anyone have an idiots guide to checking sparks on a 1zz 1.8 vvti or would a generic youtube guide be acceptable?

Disconnect the injectors (or pull their fuse).

Take plastic cover off the top of the engine.  Remove the bolts that hold the coil-packs down.  Loosen the rail that holds the wiring.  Pull the coil-packs clear off their holes.  Take care to put the rubber collars to one side and then put them back.

Remove spark plugs.

Stick one in each coil pack. 

Earth each plug in turn plug to cam cover (hold with insulated pliers). and get someone to crank her over.

You should be able to see a bright blue spark if it's good.  You'll even hear it.

While you're in there, give the old girl some new plugs.

EDIT:  Very systematic approach.  Good work.  You'll get there! 

Quick update, I haven't performed any more testing but I started the car this morning, it started (a bit lazily) but then after a few moments it died, that's the 1st time that has happened. I've also noticed the starting problem is getting much worse and more frequent. I'm only mentioning these points in case it makes someone go, aha, that happened to me.

In the meantime I'll still push on with my process of elimination as outlined by the super helpful Carolyn :)

How frustrating.

Tip. immediately before you pull yje plugs, try starting it.  Hopefully it won't start or will struggle and then not start.

I say this 'cos then, when you pull the plugs, you'll see if they're wet or not.  If they're dry, the fuel pump might be messing with you...

If wet and you have spark,.....

we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Don't forget there are TWO earth bundles that bolt to the head.

Quote from: je72 on June 22, 2018, 13:58

I decided to drive to Halfords so that they could do a proper battery check, the guy hooked up a fancy looking tester and said the battery was good as it was reading 307 only down from 330. However he told me it was the original battery but I'm sure that's incorrect as it's a Lucas Premium LP053 and there's a receipt for it about 5 years ago. I think that rules out battery issue?

Have to say I admire your approach of trying to be methodical rather than just throwing money at the problem, but nevertheless (rightly or wrongly) I think I would have stuck a new battery on there by now. Many batteries have definitely seen better days by 5 years (in fact I wish the last 3 I've replaced had lasted that long - there again I could have looked after them better) but more to the point I think that even when new your  Lucas LP053 would have been rather marginal.

I take it that the above are CCA readings (I note from ebay that the LP053 is rated at 330CCA).

A quick ebay search for batteries recommended for our car shows that even at the cheapest end (circa £44) they are 350 / 360CCA and the (£66) Yuasa YBX5053 I went for in March is 430CCA so about 40% up on your 5 year old Lucas, which would give you a lot more surplus power for a faster spinning engine / more powerful sparks / overcoming higher resistances due to marginal earths etc.

If you are not yet convinced you want to swap out the battery then as Carolyn suggested, you could always see what it's like on a jump start.

Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Quote from: Essex2Visuvesi on June 25, 2018, 19:09
Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Good point.

je72 send me a PM with your address and I'll send one.

Quote from: K T M Rider on June 25, 2018, 16:02
Have to say I admire your approach of trying to be methodical rather than just throwing money at the problem, but nevertheless (rightly or wrongly) I think I would have stuck a new battery on there by now. Many batteries have definitely seen better days by 5 years (in fact I wish the last 3 I've replaced had lasted that long - there again I could have looked after them better) but more to the point I think that even when new your  Lucas LP053 would have been rather marginal.

I take it that the above are CCA readings (I note from ebay that the LP053 is rated at 330CCA).

A quick ebay search for batteries recommended for our car shows that even at the cheapest end (circa £44) they are 350 / 360CCA and the (£66) Yuasa YBX5053 I went for in March is 430CCA so about 40% up on your 5 year old Lucas, which would give you a lot more surplus power for a faster spinning engine / more powerful sparks / overcoming higher resistances due to marginal earths etc.

If you are not yet convinced you want to swap out the battery then as Carolyn suggested, you could always see what it's like on a jump start.

Hi @K T M Rider (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13113) thanks for your input. You may well be right about the battery. I'm really inexperienced mechanically speaking and having had a bit of a spendy month last month, I am trying to avoid just chucking money at it :) and enjoying the steep learning curve that goes with diagnosing these sorts of issues. I think I'll definitely need a new battery before the winter either way as my car isn't garaged and I live at a bit of altitude.

If the known working sensor fix mentioned below doesn't work and the sparks are sparking & wet, I'll get a better battery.

Quote from: Essex2Visuvesi on June 25, 2018, 19:09
Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Thanks for your input too @Essex2Visuvesi (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23752) I was tempted to try another sensor, after all it is what the ecu is trying to tell me, and the offer of trying a known good one from @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) would seem like a great idea. Isn't this club great!!??

Quote from: Carolyn on June 25, 2018, 19:19

Quote from: Essex2Visuvesi on June 25, 2018, 19:09
Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Good point.
je72 send me a PM with your address and I'll send one.

Will do, let me pay for the post though  :)

No problem  :D
Happy to be of service.... Makes a change to be useful

Check this out:

https://youtu.be/u7XNnT060oI

That's the sound of my lovely 2 starting 1st time after I replaced the camshaft sensor with the one that @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) sent me for free! She didn't even want me to cover the postage  :notworthy: . I also gave the MAF a clean while I was there (I'd removed the air box and hose to give myself better access to the sensor) I used some proper MAF cleaning spray to be on the safe side.

He's now started 4 times out of 4 without any problems, to be absolutely sure I need to make sure it starts over the next few days as the fault was intermittent, even if it was becoming more persistent.

Thanks to everyone who pitched in with this I'm currently riding the crest of a wave of satisfaction especially as I saved myself the cost of a garage repair!

:D

Quote from: je72 on June 27, 2018, 16:58
Check this out:

https://youtu.be/u7XNnT060oI

That's the sound of my lovely 2 starting 1st time after I replaced the camshaft sensor with the one that @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) sent me for free! She didn't even want me to cover the postage. I also gave the MAF a clean while I was there (I removed the air box and house to give myself better access to the sensor)

He's now started 4 times out of 4 without any problems, to be absolutely sure I need to make sure it starts over the next few days as the fault was intermittent, even if it was becoming more persistent.

Thanks to everyone who pitched in with this I'm currently riding the crest of a wave of satisfaction especially as I saved myself the cost of a garage repair!

:D

Result!!  I'm delighted for you.

A small donation to the club might be in order?

I think a donation to the club seems very fair  :)

Just realised the heart of your problem

He's a SHE and you hurt her feelings!

Quote from: Carolyn on June 27, 2018, 17:28
Just realised the heart of your problem

He's a SHE and you hurt her feelings!

You might be right! Because she has gone back to not starting  :(

Yesterday after I replaced the camshaft sensor I had 100% starts out of 7 or 8 attempts. This morning I had a very difficult start had to crank it loads and after a few "almosts" she finally sprung into life. I tried to pull away and she died, then wouldn't start again. A few more crankings and she finally started, gave here few revs and seemed to be ticking over nicely. Drove a few miles, turned her off and she started again (maybe a little lazily) drove home and stated to do some googling.

I am now wondering if the camshaft sensor wiring loom may actually be the culprit, maybe it's grounded/shorted/broken or something? I'm wondering if when I crank her vibration sometimes helps and sometimes not (but remember I am very novice mechanically) which could explain the intermittent nature of the fault.

I could have upset something during the removal of the sensor, if I'm honest I found it very difficult (as did my neighbor when he helped) to get a spanner on the sensor bolt. I had to resort to removing the air filter box and air intake hose so that I could get anywhere near it. Just for reference I used this video guide for that https://youtu.be/8RJwRgIspFY

Incidentally when I refitted the hose to the throttle body there is a plastic "post" that the I think the screw from the clamp is supposed to fit into see video here

https://youtu.be/8RJwRgIspFY?t=1079

I couldn't get the screw into the hole so I tightened it anyway and I'm pretty sure it was tight enough, just mentioning in case it becomes relevant.

How easy would it be to change the wiring harness from the camshaft sensor? I've looked at this terrifying image from spyderchat https://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?86681-2ZZ-Wiring-Need-Assistance-with-2000-Celica-GTS-ECU-Wiring it looks like th wires ar all cable tidied together and that it goes behing the engine, I'm wondering if that will be beyond me.

Back to the drawing board I guess.

Did you clean BOTH ground bundles on the side of the head? 

I've gone back through the thread.

I'm back to suspecting the battery.  Voltage not under load is not a great indicator.  5 years is old. 

Did you try jump starting it as I suggested?

I'm not giving up on this.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 28, 2018, 16:01
Did you clean BOTH ground bundles on the side of the head?

Quote from: Carolyn on June 28, 2018, 16:12
I've gone back through the thread.

I'm back to suspecting the battery.  Voltage not under load is not a great indicator.  5 years is old. 

Did you try jump starting it as I suggested?

I'm not giving up on this.

Thanks @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) for your pateince :)

I *may have* (definitely did) forgotten to clean those wires in my excitement to get the replacement sensor in, so I'll do that tomorrow.  :withstupid:

Troubleshooting is tricky as I'm parked in the street (albeit a quietish street) and every time I've had a no start so far, I've been on my own with no one to help jump her or even look at the spark plugs for me while I cranked it.

One thing though, could a low battery be causing the P0340 error (it came back today after I cleared it yesterday)? If it could then I'll just bite the bullet and fit one but when cranking it's very lively and does ot tail off even after a few 10 second crankings, it "sounds" to me like it's providing plenty of juice.  Also because this is intermittent I'm worried that I could stump up for a new battery on and it might work for a day or two then go back to not starting, I really hoping I can identify the fault with certainly before I spend more money as it's too tight to mention. Maybe I'm in dream land.

To add insult to injury I've just noticed that I managed to crack the passenger side rear light cluster whilst leaning in and toiling away  (:< >:)

It's a shame you're so far away.

I'm sure we could solve this pretty damn quick if it was in my workshop!

Did you do the check for wet plugs when it didn't start?

If you don't fancy shelling out on a new battery I can fully recommend this

https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=64642.msg757040#msg757040

Well worth having in the car, as it charges other stuff too. If it doesn't help solve your problem then at least you have a new gadget  :)

Buy a new battery. If it doesn't work. Return it as a "doesntfit" return policy should cover it.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 28, 2018, 18:40
It's a shame you're so far away.

I'm sure we could solve this pretty damn quick if it was in my workshop!

Did you do the check for wet plugs when it didn't start?

I'm starting to think the drive over would be worth it! (for me anyways!) The only problem being that it if I drove over it would be because she started!!

So I had another tricky start this evening, I decided to inspect the plugs as you outlined, but having thought that my socket set which included two "universal" spark plug sockets would be suitible, I found out they weren't. Sadly that discovery was only after I'd removed the battery connection, engine cover, loosened the wiring rail, removed the bolts to the coil-packs and removed the coil-packfurthest to the left  :withstupid:

Ah well it was a good dry run, all I need now is go down halfords and get one tomorrow.

I put it all back together and she fired up at the 2nd time of asking, went for a spin and noticed that my front drivers dipped beam has gone, so I'll put a bulb on the list from Halfords too.

Hoping my luck starts to change soon.

Also sorry to ask this again, but do people think that a low battery could be triggering the P0340 code? it seems so random to me.

Quote from: K T M Rider on June 25, 2018, 16:02
the (£66) Yuasa YBX5053 I went for in March is 430CCA so about 40% up on your 5 year old Lucas, which would give you a lot more surplus power for a faster spinning engine / more powerful sparks / overcoming higher resistances due to marginal earths etc.

Sorry if I've been a horse you can't make drink! That vital part went over my head the 1st time I read it. I was (rightly or wrongly) convinced that my battery was ok, I'd even had it checked at Halfords. I couldn't fathom how a low battery could cause a specific sensor issue. However re-reading what you've ALL BEEN SAYING (sheesh) I think I'm going to try a new battery next.

If that fixes it, will I have to park by the bins at DD 2019?  :D

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 00:05

Quote from: K T M Rider on June 25, 2018, 16:02
the (£66) Yuasa YBX5053 I went for in March is 430CCA so about 40% up on your 5 year old Lucas, which would give you a lot more surplus power for a faster spinning engine / more powerful sparks / overcoming higher resistances due to marginal earths etc.

Sorry if I've been a horse you can't make drink! That vital part went over my head the 1st time I read it. I was (rightly or wrongly) convinced that my battery was ok, I'd even had it checked at Halfords. I couldn't fathom how a low battery could cause a specific sensor issue. However re-reading what you've ALL BEEN SAYING (sheesh) I think I'm going to try a new battery next.

If that fixes it, will I have to park by the bins at DD 2019?  :D

It's a learning curve!!  At the end of the day we all just love seeing 2's being enjoyed. It's a little bit of a spurious fault but you're still getting to know the car :) I think this could even be a culmination of things. Maybe a bad earth causing a higher resistance, low output on the batt, combining to cause a dodgy start? Who knows. We'll figure it out though.

Hello all, well I couldn't start her to get to Halfords for the battery. Luckily this particular time my helpful neighbor was around. We took the sparks out a minute or two after cranking her repeatedly and they look dry. We've tried cranking with one of the spark plugs out (all other coil packs removed) and he couldn't see a shark. He thought it was very odd that both those events were happening. He suspected immobiliser, but when I inserter key the red blinky light stops flashing. I'm going to try the spark test again but with the other 3 cool packs reattached, could that be making a difference?
:)
Any other thoughts

what I'm trying to say, should I still be replacing the battery even with the sparks being dry and no spark? My neighbour felt it was the immobiliser but when I put the key in the ignition the blinky light goes off.

The only thing I haven't tried yet is a jump start. I didn't want to ask my neighbour as he was trying to go off on a fishing weekend and I felt I'd delayed him too much already.

Immobiliser only cuts off fuel, so you'd definitely still see a spark. It's to prevent people flooding their engine with fuel in the event of an immobiliser issue.

Battery does seem likely but doesn't explain why you have dry plugs.

This technical stuff is way above my paygrade but if you havent already, I think it would be helpful to lightly sand both battery terminals and the inside of the terminals in case there is any corrosion causing a bad connection.
I would also take out every fuse and reinsert if ok in case the connections are corroded and making a bad contact.

OK folks, it's not the battery (I think) see below.

Toddled of to Halfords in our local car club car (very useful) Payed £56.98 for a shiny new Yuasa HSB053 courtesy of the Halfords price match from this website:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/yuasa/ybx5053/

Fitted it in and disappointingly, crank but no start (maybe slightly more brisk cranking if that makes sense), tried again and she did very lazilly start, but then like some previous times she died again. Then wouldn't start again. I'm left thinking that as this is all very similar behaviour to my original battery, that maybe I can finally rule out the battery, do you all agree? Or is there something else I should try now I have a new battery?

Bear in mind I tried it multiple times this morning and I couldn't get her to even come close to start. Another neighbor wandered passed and he said if it's starting but then dying, it must be the fuel.

I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:

https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

He
Where are you based?

.

Quote from: Ardent on June 29, 2018, 17:00
He
Where are you based?

Malvern Worcestershire.

Any knowledgeable members close by able to assist?
Close being a relative term here.

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 14:21
OK folks, it's not the battery (I think) see below.

Toddled of to Halfords in our local car club car (very useful) Payed £56.98 for a shiny new Yuasa HSB053 courtesy of the Halfords price match from this website:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/yuasa/ybx5053/

Fitted it in and disappointingly, crank but no start (maybe slightly more brisk cranking if that makes sense), tried again and she did very lazilly start, but then like some previous times she died again. Then wouldn't start again. I'm left thinking that as this is all very similar behaviour to my original battery, that maybe I can finally rule out the battery, do you all agree? Or is there something else I should try now I have a new battery?

Bear in mind I tried it multiple times this morning and I couldn't get her to even come close to start. Another neighbor wandered passed and he said if it's starting but then dying, it must be the fuel.

I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:

https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

Have you done the 'pull the plugs' immediately after it failed to start?  Have you checked the spark and advised? We have to determine if the problem is sparks or fuel.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 29, 2018, 17:47

Have you done the 'pull the plugs' immediately after it failed to start?

Yes this morning prior to battery change. It was as immediate as I could manage with disconnecting battery and getting the spark plug out, but bear in mind I'm very slow. It was dry.

Tried cranking it with spark plug out and Mr neighbor said no spark either. So I seem to have no spark or fuel.

Not sure if you've read all the posts I added today, but after I fitted the new battery she did start lazily at the 2nd time is asking, but died after a few moments and hasn't started again. It's cranking faster now though with the new battery.

No spark, no fuel.

Immobiliser, or ECU. 

Any  other opinions, folks?

Quote from: Carolyn on June 29, 2018, 17:57
No spark, no fuel.

Immobiliser, or ECU. 

Any  other opinions, folks?

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

I'm sitting in the car she's running perfectly!  I just came up to see if any other fault codes had been flushed through (still have the p0340 at the moment) and I thought I'll try her again, it's been several hours since I last tried.

She cranked and sparked blooming well instantly! Drove up the street, turned round. Turned her off, held my breath, turned hey back on, cranked and sparked instantly!

Could it have been the bloody battery after all? Maybe she needed a little time after I fitted the battery to compose herself with all this extra juice?

I'm flummoxed. So let's hope this is it.  :notworthy:

Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head? 

Quote from: Carolyn on June 29, 2018, 18:29
Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head?

Well I think so, are they underneath a rather awkward bracket below the easy to find bundle on the upper left side of the head? If I'm honest, I'm getting a bit worried about touching her now. I think when funds allow I should get to a competent mechanic and allow them to check her out. I feel like I'm not helping.

Maybe I just need to have a day not messing about with her and I'll replenish my sense of maintenance adventure :-)

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 18:44

Quote from: Carolyn on June 29, 2018, 18:29
Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head?

Well I think so, are they underneath a rather awkward bracket below the easy to find bundle on the upper left side of the head? If I'm honest, I'm getting a bit worried about touching her now. I think when funds allow I should get to a competent mechanic and allow them to check her out. I feel like I'm not helping.

Maybe I just need to have a day not messing about with her and I'll replenish my sense of maintenance adventure :-)

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but disconnecting the battery for a while resets the ECU so then when you start the car again it has a period of learning, which is probably why the codes are disappearing and reappearing etc.


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I suppose you wouldn't expect sparks if it can't detect the cam position. If it's not the cam sensor or the battery then next is the wiring to the sensor. How does the wiring look? Anything look squished?

Not particulary helpful, but a shame you are not closer to Loughborough.
One of our affilates, Steve at D1 Customs. This is "his thing" diagnostic wizard.
Fault finding, he loves it, and excels at it

Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 29, 2018, 18:58

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 18:44

Quote from: Carolyn on June 29, 2018, 18:29
Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head?

Well I think so, are they underneath a rather awkward bracket below the easy to find bundle on the upper left side of the head? If I'm honest, I'm getting a bit worried about touching her now. I think when funds allow I should get to a competent mechanic and allow them to check her out. I feel like I'm not helping.

Maybe I just need to have a day not messing about with her and I'll replenish my sense of maintenance adventure :-)

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but disconnecting the battery for a while resets the ECU so then when you start the car again it has a period of learning, which is probably why the codes are disappearing and reappearing etc.

This is actually something I was aware of, a little chink of knowledge in a huge void of cluelessness :D

Quote from: jonbill on June 29, 2018, 21:47
I suppose you wouldn't expect sparks if it can't detect the cam position. If it's not the cam sensor or the battery then next is the wiring to the sensor. How does the wiring look? Anything look squished?

Cheers for pitching in :)

That was my thinking, after I did a bit of googling following changing the sensor. The wiring looks ... complicated to me, I can't see most of it as the wiring for the camshaft sensor runs between the engine and the firewall. I have no idea how to thoroughly check it myself. This is why I'm wondering about getting it to someone who does.

I've had fantastic support on here and I think I am capable of building my skills in the long run, but at this stage I'm part of the problem  :P

Quote from: Ardent on June 29, 2018, 23:35
Not particulary helpful, but a shame you are not closer to Loughborough.
One of our affilates, Steve at D1 Customs. This is "his thing" diagnostic wizard.
Fault finding, he loves it, and excels at it

What are the house prices like in Loughborough? :D

Maybe we should start a MR2 community somewhere in the East Midlands  :-)

Well she's back to crank but no start this morning  :'( :'(

It's such a pain though because I can't get her to a garage when she won't start and of course if I book a mobile mechanic to come she'll probably start 1st time when they throw the key. I've also lost faith in my own troubleshooting skills, the help from you guys is awesome, my worry is that I could be missing vital things and testing things inconclusively. Then when I feed back to you all it just gets us further away from the solution.

One thing that's been bothering me, could this have anything to do with the de-cat? I never had any problems starting before I had that done and the problem didn't start immediately after the work was completed, but it was within a week or so. I know it's probably just a coincidence but thought I'd ask.

Quote from: je72 on June 30, 2018, 09:25
Well she's back to crank but no start this morning  :'( :'(

It's such a pain though because I can't get her to a garage when she won't start and of course if I book a mobile mechanic to come she'll probably start 1st time when they throw the key. I've also lost faith in my own troubleshooting skills, the help from you guys is awesome, my worry is that I could be missing vital things and testing things inconclusively. Then when I feed back to you all it just gets us further away from the solution.

One thing that's been bothering me, could this have anything to do with the de-cat? I never had any problems starting before I had that done and the problem didn't start immediately after the work was completed, but it was within a week or so. I know it's probably just a coincidence but thought I'd ask.

Other than disconnecting the battery as a precaution before removing the O2 sensors, removing/replacing the manifold shouldn't disturb anything else electrical.
A mobile mechanic would be able to check the timing though, regardless of if it fired first time and  as it's an intermittent fault it wouldn't matter if it did start.
The mechanic would still be able to work through all the usual suspects and hopefully pinpoint the fault, might cost a few quid but at the moment the car is virtually worthless to you in this glorious weather...


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Personally I wouldn't think decatting would have anything to do with it.
I'd have a go at wiggling the wiring to the cam sensor when it won't start to see if that makes a difference.

Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 30, 2018, 09:35
Other than disconnecting the battery as a precaution before removing the O2 sensors, removing/replacing the manifold shouldn't disturb anything else electrical.
A mobile mechanic would be able to check the timing though, regardless of if it fired first time and  as it's an intermittent fault it wouldn't matter if it did start.
The mechanic would still be able to work through all the usual suspects and hopefully pinpoint the fault, might cost a few quid but at the moment the car is virtually worthless to you in this glorious weather...

I was thinking that it probably wasn't the de-cat, but it's fair to say I've "lived" this problem for the last 2 or 3 days. I'd even considered which way I parked the car on the gradient in my street :D

Just need to source myself a decent local mechanic now. I might try the facebook group to see if anyone on there can recommend anyone. You're right though I've been absolutely gutted that I can't just hop in for a drive lately.

Quote from: jonbill on June 30, 2018, 09:38
Personally I wouldn't think decatting would have anything to do with it.
I'd have a go at wiggling the wiring to the cam sensor when it won't start to see if that makes a difference.

Yeah, just me adding 2+2 and getting 7.

I'll wiggle my wires, though knowing my luck they'll probably snap off in my hand :D

A poor earth will give intermittent problems.  Injectors, sparks and cam sensor all earth to the head.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 30, 2018, 10:11
A poor earth will give intermittent problems.  Injectors, sparks and cam sensor all earth to the head.

You are SO patient Carolyn, I feel that I've failed you :D you've tried so hard to help me. I'm going to see if I can clean BOTH bundles of earths as you've mentioned. I'm planning to loosen/remove them, then go at everything that touches together with a wire brush. Is there anything else I should do? Copper grease maybe?

Hey, patience is what it takes with problems like this.  Keep plugging!! 

Edit:  A poor engine earth might also cause your problems.  You'll be having the intake off, I should think, so check the one bolted to the top of the gearbox and also check the one that goes from the head to the chassis above the right hand side of the engine.  Check and clean them all.  The big current of starting might over come, but smaller currents might struggle.
Wire brush and maybe sandpaper or a small flat file.  Get it all clean and shiny.  That should suffice.

Quote from: je72 on June 30, 2018, 10:29

Quote from: Carolyn on June 30, 2018, 10:11
A poor earth will give intermittent problems.  Injectors, sparks and cam sensor all earth to the head.

You are SO patient Carolyn, I feel that I've failed you :D you've tried so hard to help me. I'm going to see if I can clean BOTH bundles of earths as you've mentioned. I'm planning to loosen/remove them, then go at everything that touches together with a wire brush. Is there anything else I should do? Copper grease maybe?

blasting everything electrical with some of this probably wouldn't hurt

https://www.wd40specialist.com/products/contact-cleaner/

(or for a budget option I'd have probably emptied a can of Morrison's maintenance spray over the engine bay by now)

Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 14:21
I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:

(https://i.imgur.com/r6VPWjj.jpg)

Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever! :D :D :D

Quote from: je72 on June 30, 2018, 12:55
Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 14:21
I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:

(https://i.imgur.com/r6VPWjj.jpg)

Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever! :D :D :D

It'll be tricky but you need to run a die down it to try and recut/clean the threads and then try a nyloc nut and washer on it in the hope it cuts the nut tight enough to stay put.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 30, 2018, 13:02

Quote from: je72 on June 30, 2018, 12:55
Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 14:21
I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:

(https://i.imgur.com/r6VPWjj.jpg)

Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever! :D :D :D

It'll be tricky but you need to run a die down it to try and recut/clean the threads and then try a nyloc nut and washer on it in the hope it cuts the nut tight enough to stay put.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But well done on hopefully getting to the bottom of it and proving some Saturday morning light entertainment![emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 30, 2018, 13:03

Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 30, 2018, 13:02

Quote from: je72 on June 30, 2018, 12:55
Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

Quote from: je72 on June 29, 2018, 14:21
I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:

(https://i.imgur.com/r6VPWjj.jpg)

Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever! :D :D :D

It'll be tricky but you need to run a die down it to try and recut/clean the threads and then try a nyloc nut and washer on it in the hope it cuts the nut tight enough to stay put.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But well done on hopefully getting to the bottom of it and proving some Saturday morning light entertainment![emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Get that stud out with some vice grips.  You can replace with a short M6 bolt or I can send you a new stud.

Steal a short M6 (10 mmm head) from somewhere less vital for now.  I'll send a new stud.

In the meantime. STILL go through all those earths!!

Hey Jade. Good to see you making forward progress.

If its any consolation I'm working through very similar oddities with Dad's old car. Just when I think I'm close to nailing it, it throws another tantrum  (:< >:) Keep at it - you'll figure it out and learn a hell of a lot of useful stuff along the way.

The floppy block that you're parading is your electrical choke. I wouldn't expect it to cause you these problems as I've seen them dangling free with a broken bracket in otherwise OK '2s..... but I could well be wrong if its bouncing around and making intermittent contact.

If you don't want to replace that stud just yet, get the choke bracket clamped down somewhere nearby - there are plenty of other 10mm bolts on that side of the engine that you can fasten it down with. (edit - exactly what Carolyn said. D'oh, she's too fast for me!). During rebuilds many folk forget where its supposed to go and just tighten it down with the nearest available bolt. I've done it myself in the past. Carolyn does it properly :D

(I wrote the following while you were beavering away...... but I'll leave it here just in case)

The only nugget I can throw in aside from the excellent advice that C and others have offered (and you've inspired us with along the way) would be the Crank sensor lead and earth. Its a delicate sensor in a crud-filled location..... and conveniently close to where things were being prodded around during your water pump pulley excitement.

Its not an absolute diagnosis..... just something else to throw into the pot if problems persist. I've experienced poor and intermittent starting issues with funky crank sensors in the past..... more often than not down to the wiring rather than the sensor itself. The crank earth connection on the '2 doesn't have to be spotless but it can easily get corroded.

Nic's old '2 had a grubby crank earth. While it was OK with the standard ECU it wouldn't run on the Apexi ECU until the earth had been cleaned up. It would just crank with no spark or fuel.

Hope I'm not muddying the waters with this - but add it to your list if the choke clamp fix doesn't do the business.

I would just add that every time you do a bit of juggling in that area, you seem to get a temporary result.  That suggests to me that you're inadvertently also waggling a loose earth.

I've noticed you are tending to keep going for a single solution.  Don't. Do all the earths.  All of them.  Crank sensor earth is doable from underneath.  it's on the timing cover, low down towards the front of the car.

Stud on the way.

Quote from: Carolyn on June 30, 2018, 13:34
I would just add that every time you do a bit of juggling in that area, you seem to get a temporary result.  That suggests to me that you're inadvertently also waggling a loose earth.

I've noticed you are tending to keep going for a single solution.  Don't. Do all the earths.  All of them.  Crank sensor earth is doable from underneath.  it's on the timing cover, low down towards the front of the car.

Stud on the way.

1st the good news, she started all day yesterday AND today after I fitted the cardboard wedge electric choke mod  ;)

You're right, I have been stopping once I got her going, but fear not, I fully plan on cleaning every earth that I can get my hands on, I'd just rather be doing it in a nicer less stressed frame of mind whilst also being able to use her as a car  ;)

With regards to you sending me a replacement stud, that's so so kind of you AGAIN!  Thank you :notworthy: I just need to pluck up the courage to go at removing the threaded stud  ::)

Quote from: spit on June 30, 2018, 13:17
Hey Jade. Good to see you making forward progress.

If its any consolation I'm working through very similar oddities with Dad's old car. Just when I think I'm close to nailing it, it throws another tantrum  (:< >:) Keep at it - you'll figure it out and learn a hell of a lot of useful stuff along the way.

The floppy block that you're parading is your electrical choke. I wouldn't expect it to cause you these problems as I've seen them dangling free with a broken bracket in otherwise OK '2s..... but I could well be wrong if its bouncing around and making intermittent contact.

If you don't want to replace that stud just yet, get the choke bracket clamped down somewhere nearby - there are plenty of other 10mm bolts on that side of the engine that you can fasten it down with. (edit - exactly what Carolyn said. D'oh, she's too fast for me!). During rebuilds many folk forget where its supposed to go and just tighten it down with the nearest available bolt. I've done it myself in the past. Carolyn does it properly :D

(I wrote the following while you were beavering away...... but I'll leave it here just in case)

The only nugget I can throw in aside from the excellent advice that C and others have offered (and you've inspired us with along the way) would be the Crank sensor lead and earth. Its a delicate sensor in a crud-filled location..... and conveniently close to where things were being prodded around during your water pump pulley excitement.

Its not an absolute diagnosis..... just something else to throw into the pot if problems persist. I've experienced poor and intermittent starting issues with funky crank sensors in the past..... more often than not down to the wiring rather than the sensor itself. The crank earth connection on the '2 doesn't have to be spotless but it can easily get corroded.

Nic's old '2 had a grubby crank earth. While it was OK with the standard ECU it wouldn't run on the Apexi ECU until the earth had been cleaned up. It would just crank with no spark or fuel.

Hope I'm not muddying the waters with this - but add it to your list if the choke clamp fix doesn't do the business.

Hey @spit (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=823) nice to hear from you and thanks very much for those helpful nuggets.  The electric choke (another bit I've learned) was indeed flapping around loosely, but as mentioned above my cardboard wedge mod is actually working well and I've had no problems starting since I "installed" it :D Once I get the stud from C, I'll get that fixed permanently and then start working through the earths :)

Good luck with your dads car (need a thumbs up emoji)

The 1st time I've been able to enjoy Ozzy for a couple of weeks without a worry that she might not start again if I stopped!

(https://i.imgur.com/Z9DZBDx.jpg)
Check those big beautiful ears! :D

Had a beautiful cruise along one of the best roads in Worcestershire/Herefordshire the B4232 Jubilee Drive:

https://goo.gl/maps/N3jsbt9gABC2

Quote from: je72 on July  2, 2018, 00:15
The 1st time I've been able to enjoy Ozzy for a couple of weeks without a worry that she might not start again if I stopped!

Welcome to reliability:)

Congrats on finding the culprit!

I'm a little confused though.
Is the noise filter also used as an electronic choke?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180702/bac83be0186f8ea5028e5bd6d87e1906.jpg)

Quote from: shnazzle on July  2, 2018, 06:48
Congrats on finding the culprit!

I'm a little confused though.
Is the noise filter also used as an electronic choke?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180702/bac83be0186f8ea5028e5bd6d87e1906.jpg)

I'm just going from what @spit (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=823) said in his comment, I'm afraid I can't verify either way. After a bit google, it seems that the "Noise sensor" helps with radio interference? That's a great diagram though I tried to find an image like that to share with you guys!

Just trying to sum up exactly what happened here. Do you think the initial problem was caused by the battery and or cam sensor and then you got a subsequent issue as a result of doing the cam sensor and damaging the stud? Or do you think the problem may have been that the offending stud was causing the problem all along? If so that could be something for us all to be aware of.
Thanks

I'm not convinced it's the stud or the noise filter.  Could be, could also be the cardboard is stabilising something else that is a maginal connection.

We'll see.

Quote from: lamcote on July  2, 2018, 09:38
Just trying to sum up exactly what happened here. Do you think the initial problem was caused by the battery and or cam sensor and then you got a subsequent issue as a result of doing the cam sensor and damaging the stud? Or do you think the problem may have been that the offending stud was causing the problem all along? If so that could be something for us all to be aware of.
Thanks

You've summed up my (unqualified) feeling of what has happened here. But as you'll see from Carolyn's (infinitely more qualified) comment she's not so sure. As a result I'm gradually going to work through all the earthing points to try to ensure I don't get a reoccurrence.

I reckon you should put the old battery and cam sensor back in to test it all out ......................NOT!

Quote from: lamcote on July  2, 2018, 10:48
I reckon you should put the old battery and cam sensor back in to test it all out ......................NOT!

Hahaha, I was kind of dreading that someone might say try putting the old cam sensor back in :D A new air filter arrived today, so I "might" just try that as it was much easier once the airbox was out of the way.  ::)

Quote from: je72 on July  2, 2018, 10:58

Quote from: lamcote on July  2, 2018, 10:48
I reckon you should put the old battery and cam sensor back in to test it all out ......................NOT!

Hahaha, I was kind of dreading that someone might say try putting the old cam sensor back in :D A new air filter arrived today, so I "might" just try that as it was much easier once the airbox was out of the way.  ::)

I'm not fussed about getting the sensor back  'Never groom a working horse' applies here.

While you've got the intake in bits, it's a great time to do earths as they are very accessible.

Quote from: shnazzle!I'm a little confused though.
Is the noise filter also used as an electronic choke?

Apologies for confusing you yung'un!  ;)
These were known as chokes or suppressors back in the days of b/w tele and flares.
Without one, the radio was nothing more than a sonic tachometer!
How they worked back then I've no idea. How they work now, I've no idea.

Royal Mail have eaten the stud Carolyn sent last Saturday. I've kind of been waiting for that before I got busy with cleaning the earth's (any excuse huh?) So to avoid any more hassles for Carolyn, I think I'll pop somewhere and get a stud or a bolt from b&q or Halfords or somewhere  :-\ As you know I'm a novice so I just wanted to know (other than suitable dimensions) is there any kind preferred material or features for such a bolt?

Cheers :-)

If it's m6 then you could always replace it with an A10 stainless, m6 screw and washer. They're cheap as chips at Screwfix for a bag of 10 and some washers. Plus they're the same fixings for the nappies etc when you shear them off.


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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July  5, 2018, 12:10
If it's m6 then you could always replace it with an A10 stainless, m6 screw and washer. They're cheap as chips at Screwfix for a bag of 10 and some washers. Plus they're the same fixings for the nappies etc when you shear them off

Ha! Yes that will indeed kill two birds with one stone when I inevitably shear off the nappy fixings whilst trying to get at the crankshaft earth :P

Thanks for your help 👍

I thought you might be interested in an update  :-\ I've been putting off cleaning the 2nd bundle the of earths and doing the 1st lot again properly for about 2 weeks (heatwave, have to work on car in street, no shade blah blah) I'd only had one problem in that time when the car stalled at the end of my street, it started again and I was able to use it for the job I had to do. I knew then that as you guys suspected, me replacing the stud with a bolt that clamps the noise filter, wasn't the fix to my problem. I knew I'd got to get those earths properly cleaned, I was waiting for it to get a bit cooler as I wanted to change the air filter and have a go at fitting the ultimate gear bushings at the same time. Three birds with stone as it were!

Then Wednesday I noticed that after I went over some bumpy bits in my street, I detected a slight "pause" it didn't stall altogether and then carried on ok. Yesterday I drove to the end of my road and as I went over the bumpy bit again, the engine stalled properly. it kept restarting (I was in a dodgy road position) so had to keep starting and moving a bit and then it would stall again, sometimes she wouldn't' start at the 1st time of asking. I kept jumping out and gently pushing and shoving the wiring near the earth's. Eventually I got her back home, but that really focussed my mind, I must have a loose earth right?

So today, I got busy (although I did back out of doing the bushings, I'd read the whole group buy thread and it filled me with dread about the tales of scraped knuckles and battles) I decided I'd tackle that when I get the starting problem resolved once and for all.

This is what my filter looked like:

(https://i.imgur.com/kL1BzPz.jpg)

It actually looks slightly better in the pic than in real life! It's not supposed to look like that right?

Anyway she's got a lovely fresh compline one in there now, that ll went very well, I'm definitely getting better!

Then I came to do the earths, I don't possess any spanners I've been doing everything with an old cheap socket set (which to be fair has done the job) but I can't get the socket on the earths to remove them as it's too long and it interferes with the little wires running from the wiring loom.  I've decided to get a 10mm spanner and have a go over the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!

That filter is horrendous.
Last time I saw a filter like that it was on my pre-fl before I serviced it and it kept stalling and stumbling

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 12:11
That filter is horrendous.
Last time I saw a filter like that it was on my pre-fl before I serviced it and it kept stalling and stumbling

Even I could tell that wasn't right. It actually looks better in the pic than in real life. It was very satisfying getting that changed. It is possible that could be the cause of my starting and stalling problem? I have to say, it sounded better to me after I fitted it, car seemed to be purring nicely.

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 12:26

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 12:11
That filter is horrendous.
Last time I saw a filter like that it was on my pre-fl before I serviced it and it kept stalling and stumbling

Even I could tell that wasn't right. It actually looks better in the pic than in real life. It was very satisfying getting that changed. It is possible that could be the cause of my starting and stalling problem? I have to say, it sounded better to me after I fitted it, car seemed to be purring nicely.

Absolutely. That engine will have been choked like a chicken in a teenager's bedroom.

Reset the ecu (assuming you've cleaned maf already) and see what it's like

https://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/socket-sets/halfords-advanced-36-piece-socket-set-1-4
Not necessarily this one but they've got the half price sale on again, top quality tools and lifetime replacement guarantee if they fail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 12:03
I thought you might be interested in an update  :-\ I've been putting off cleaning the 2nd bundle the of earths and doing the 1st lot again properly for about 2 weeks (heatwave, have to work on car in street, no shade blah blah) I'd only had one problem in that time when the car stalled at the end of my street, it started again and I was able to use it for the job I had to do. I knew then that as you guys suspected, me replacing the stud with a bolt that clamps the noise filter, wasn't the fix to my problem. I knew I'd got to get those earths properly cleaned, I was waiting for it to get a bit cooler as I wanted to change the air filter and have a go at fitting the ultimate gear bushings at the same time. Three birds with stone as it were!

Then Wednesday I noticed that after I went over some bumpy bits in my street, I detected a slight "pause" it didn't stall altogether and then carried on ok. Yesterday I drove to the end of my road and as I went over the bumpy bit again, the engine stalled properly. it kept restarting (I was in a dodgy road position) so had to keep starting and moving a bit and then it would stall again, sometimes she wouldn't' start at the 1st time of asking. I kept jumping out and gently pushing and shoving the wiring near the earth's. Eventually I got her back home, but that really focussed my mind, I must have a loose earth right?

So today, I got busy (although I did back out of doing the bushings, I'd read the whole group buy thread and it filled me with dread about the tales of scraped knuckles and battles) I decided I'd tackle that when I get the starting problem resolved once and for all.

This is what my filter looked like:

(https://i.imgur.com/kL1BzPz.jpg)

It actually looks slightly better in the pic than in real life! It's not supposed to look like that right?

Anyway she's got a lovely fresh compline one in there now, that ll went very well, I'm definitely getting better!

Then I came to do the earths, I don't possess any spanners I've been doing everything with an old cheap socket set (which to be fair has done the job) but I can't get the socket on the earths to remove them as it's too long and it interferes with the little wires running from the wiring loom.  I've decided to get a 10mm spanner and have a go over the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!

From experience. Don't buy individual spanners. It'll add up very quickly to a lot of money. If you can, take the hit and buy a toolset from the outset. It'll always get used and is a good investment IMO. Halfords advances tools are quite good and have lifetime guarantee. If you can find someone with a trade card you'll make huge savings.

I paid £200 for a £400 toolbox on trade card. :) had everything I needed for my build, ish.

Quote from: dan944 on July 13, 2018, 12:37

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 12:03
I thought you might be interested in an update  :-\ I've been putting off cleaning the 2nd bundle the of earths and doing the 1st lot again properly for about 2 weeks (heatwave, have to work on car in street, no shade blah blah) I'd only had one problem in that time when the car stalled at the end of my street, it started again and I was able to use it for the job I had to do. I knew then that as you guys suspected, me replacing the stud with a bolt that clamps the noise filter, wasn't the fix to my problem. I knew I'd got to get those earths properly cleaned, I was waiting for it to get a bit cooler as I wanted to change the air filter and have a go at fitting the ultimate gear bushings at the same time. Three birds with stone as it were!

Then Wednesday I noticed that after I went over some bumpy bits in my street, I detected a slight "pause" it didn't stall altogether and then carried on ok. Yesterday I drove to the end of my road and as I went over the bumpy bit again, the engine stalled properly. it kept restarting (I was in a dodgy road position) so had to keep starting and moving a bit and then it would stall again, sometimes she wouldn't' start at the 1st time of asking. I kept jumping out and gently pushing and shoving the wiring near the earth's. Eventually I got her back home, but that really focussed my mind, I must have a loose earth right?

So today, I got busy (although I did back out of doing the bushings, I'd read the whole group buy thread and it filled me with dread about the tales of scraped knuckles and battles) I decided I'd tackle that when I get the starting problem resolved once and for all.

This is what my filter looked like:

(https://i.imgur.com/kL1BzPz.jpg)

It actually looks slightly better in the pic than in real life! It's not supposed to look like that right?

Anyway she's got a lovely fresh compline one in there now, that ll went very well, I'm definitely getting better!

Then I came to do the earths, I don't possess any spanners I've been doing everything with an old cheap socket set (which to be fair has done the job) but I can't get the socket on the earths to remove them as it's too long and it interferes with the little wires running from the wiring loom.  I've decided to get a 10mm spanner and have a go over the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!

From experience. Don't buy individual spanners. It'll add up very quickly to a lot of money. If you can, take the hit and buy a toolset from the outset. It'll always get used and is a good investment IMO. Halfords advances tools are quite good and have lifetime guarantee. If you can find someone with a trade card you'll make huge savings.

I paid £200 for a £400 toolbox on trade card. :) had everything I needed for my build, ish.

See? Another glowing recommendation for Halfrauds socket sets. If you go further up the range there's at least one with a set of ratchet spanners in too, same one I've got. Pretty sure it's got the "magic" torx bit in it too.


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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 13, 2018, 12:40

Quote from: dan944 on July 13, 2018, 12:37

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 12:03
I thought you might be interested in an update  :-\ I've been putting off cleaning the 2nd bundle the of earths and doing the 1st lot again properly for about 2 weeks (heatwave, have to work on car in street, no shade blah blah) I'd only had one problem in that time when the car stalled at the end of my street, it started again and I was able to use it for the job I had to do. I knew then that as you guys suspected, me replacing the stud with a bolt that clamps the noise filter, wasn't the fix to my problem. I knew I'd got to get those earths properly cleaned, I was waiting for it to get a bit cooler as I wanted to change the air filter and have a go at fitting the ultimate gear bushings at the same time. Three birds with stone as it were!

Then Wednesday I noticed that after I went over some bumpy bits in my street, I detected a slight "pause" it didn't stall altogether and then carried on ok. Yesterday I drove to the end of my road and as I went over the bumpy bit again, the engine stalled properly. it kept restarting (I was in a dodgy road position) so had to keep starting and moving a bit and then it would stall again, sometimes she wouldn't' start at the 1st time of asking. I kept jumping out and gently pushing and shoving the wiring near the earth's. Eventually I got her back home, but that really focussed my mind, I must have a loose earth right?

So today, I got busy (although I did back out of doing the bushings, I'd read the whole group buy thread and it filled me with dread about the tales of scraped knuckles and battles) I decided I'd tackle that when I get the starting problem resolved once and for all.

This is what my filter looked like:

(https://i.imgur.com/kL1BzPz.jpg)

It actually looks slightly better in the pic than in real life! It's not supposed to look like that right?

Anyway she's got a lovely fresh compline one in there now, that ll went very well, I'm definitely getting better!

Then I came to do the earths, I don't possess any spanners I've been doing everything with an old cheap socket set (which to be fair has done the job) but I can't get the socket on the earths to remove them as it's too long and it interferes with the little wires running from the wiring loom.  I've decided to get a 10mm spanner and have a go over the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!

From experience. Don't buy individual spanners. It'll add up very quickly to a lot of money. If you can, take the hit and buy a toolset from the outset. It'll always get used and is a good investment IMO. Halfords advances tools are quite good and have lifetime guarantee. If you can find someone with a trade card you'll make huge savings.

I paid £200 for a £400 toolbox on trade card. :) had everything I needed for my build, ish.

See? Another glowing recommendation for Halfrauds socket sets. If you go further up the range there's at least one with a set of ratchet spanners in too, same one I've got. Pretty sure it's got the "magic" torx bit in it too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The tools aren't mind blowing. But the guarantee is probably better than snap-ons tbh.
No questions asked. I've been doin all sorts to my tools haha

Quote from: dan944 on July 13, 2018, 12:42

Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 13, 2018, 12:40

Quote from: dan944 on July 13, 2018, 12:37

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 12:03
I thought you might be interested in an update  :-\ I've been putting off cleaning the 2nd bundle the of earths and doing the 1st lot again properly for about 2 weeks (heatwave, have to work on car in street, no shade blah blah) I'd only had one problem in that time when the car stalled at the end of my street, it started again and I was able to use it for the job I had to do. I knew then that as you guys suspected, me replacing the stud with a bolt that clamps the noise filter, wasn't the fix to my problem. I knew I'd got to get those earths properly cleaned, I was waiting for it to get a bit cooler as I wanted to change the air filter and have a go at fitting the ultimate gear bushings at the same time. Three birds with stone as it were!

Then Wednesday I noticed that after I went over some bumpy bits in my street, I detected a slight "pause" it didn't stall altogether and then carried on ok. Yesterday I drove to the end of my road and as I went over the bumpy bit again, the engine stalled properly. it kept restarting (I was in a dodgy road position) so had to keep starting and moving a bit and then it would stall again, sometimes she wouldn't' start at the 1st time of asking. I kept jumping out and gently pushing and shoving the wiring near the earth's. Eventually I got her back home, but that really focussed my mind, I must have a loose earth right?

So today, I got busy (although I did back out of doing the bushings, I'd read the whole group buy thread and it filled me with dread about the tales of scraped knuckles and battles) I decided I'd tackle that when I get the starting problem resolved once and for all.

This is what my filter looked like:

(https://i.imgur.com/kL1BzPz.jpg)

It actually looks slightly better in the pic than in real life! It's not supposed to look like that right?

Anyway she's got a lovely fresh compline one in there now, that ll went very well, I'm definitely getting better!

Then I came to do the earths, I don't possess any spanners I've been doing everything with an old cheap socket set (which to be fair has done the job) but I can't get the socket on the earths to remove them as it's too long and it interferes with the little wires running from the wiring loom.  I've decided to get a 10mm spanner and have a go over the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!

From experience. Don't buy individual spanners. It'll add up very quickly to a lot of money. If you can, take the hit and buy a toolset from the outset. It'll always get used and is a good investment IMO. Halfords advances tools are quite good and have lifetime guarantee. If you can find someone with a trade card you'll make huge savings.

I paid £200 for a £400 toolbox on trade card. :) had everything I needed for my build, ish.

See? Another glowing recommendation for Halfrauds socket sets. If you go further up the range there's at least one with a set of ratchet spanners in too, same one I've got. Pretty sure it's got the "magic" torx bit in it too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The tools aren't mind blowing. But the guarantee is probably better than snap-ons tbh.
No questions asked. I've been doin all sorts to my tools haha

I got H a full set when he started his apprenticeship, they're now cast aside since he got mugged off by the MAC tools rep but that's his circus.
One thing you really do need in your arsenal though is a decent breaker bar. (To je72)


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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 13, 2018, 12:51

Quote from: dan944 on July 13, 2018, 12:42

Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 13, 2018, 12:40

Quote from: dan944 on July 13, 2018, 12:37

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 12:03
I thought you might be interested in an update  :-\ I've been putting off cleaning the 2nd bundle the of earths and doing the 1st lot again properly for about 2 weeks (heatwave, have to work on car in street, no shade blah blah) I'd only had one problem in that time when the car stalled at the end of my street, it started again and I was able to use it for the job I had to do. I knew then that as you guys suspected, me replacing the stud with a bolt that clamps the noise filter, wasn't the fix to my problem. I knew I'd got to get those earths properly cleaned, I was waiting for it to get a bit cooler as I wanted to change the air filter and have a go at fitting the ultimate gear bushings at the same time. Three birds with stone as it were!

Then Wednesday I noticed that after I went over some bumpy bits in my street, I detected a slight "pause" it didn't stall altogether and then carried on ok. Yesterday I drove to the end of my road and as I went over the bumpy bit again, the engine stalled properly. it kept restarting (I was in a dodgy road position) so had to keep starting and moving a bit and then it would stall again, sometimes she wouldn't' start at the 1st time of asking. I kept jumping out and gently pushing and shoving the wiring near the earth's. Eventually I got her back home, but that really focussed my mind, I must have a loose earth right?

So today, I got busy (although I did back out of doing the bushings, I'd read the whole group buy thread and it filled me with dread about the tales of scraped knuckles and battles) I decided I'd tackle that when I get the starting problem resolved once and for all.

This is what my filter looked like:

(https://i.imgur.com/kL1BzPz.jpg)

It actually looks slightly better in the pic than in real life! It's not supposed to look like that right?

Anyway she's got a lovely fresh compline one in there now, that ll went very well, I'm definitely getting better!

Then I came to do the earths, I don't possess any spanners I've been doing everything with an old cheap socket set (which to be fair has done the job) but I can't get the socket on the earths to remove them as it's too long and it interferes with the little wires running from the wiring loom.  I've decided to get a 10mm spanner and have a go over the weekend.

Onwards and upwards!

From experience. Don't buy individual spanners. It'll add up very quickly to a lot of money. If you can, take the hit and buy a toolset from the outset. It'll always get used and is a good investment IMO. Halfords advances tools are quite good and have lifetime guarantee. If you can find someone with a trade card you'll make huge savings.

I paid £200 for a £400 toolbox on trade card. :) had everything I needed for my build, ish.

See? Another glowing recommendation for Halfrauds socket sets. If you go further up the range there's at least one with a set of ratchet spanners in too, same one I've got. Pretty sure it's got the "magic" torx bit in it too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The tools aren't mind blowing. But the guarantee is probably better than snap-ons tbh.
No questions asked. I've been doin all sorts to my tools haha

I got H a full set when he started his apprenticeship, they're now cast aside since he got mugged off by the MAC tools rep but that's his circus.
One thing you really do need in your arsenal though is a decent breaker bar. (To je72)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I still need to get one but with the Halfords guarantee who need it haha.

4ft persuader bar and the half inch ratchet tends to work.
If it breaks...it breaks. I'll get a shiny new one :) haha.

All seriousness though, breaker bar is a good call.

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 12:32

Absolutely. That engine will have been choked like a chicken in a teenager's bedroom.

Reset the ecu (assuming you've cleaned maf already) and see what it's like

Hehe, that made me chuckle! I did clean the maf a while back, it was pretty cruddy too:

Before:
(https://i.imgur.com/ChyeniR.jpg)

After:
(https://i.imgur.com/fAJ3e7Y.jpg)

I reset the ecu when I cleaned it (2 weeks ago) do you reckon it's probably best to do it again now there's a clean air filter too?

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 13:11

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 12:32

Absolutely. That engine will have been choked like a chicken in a teenager's bedroom.

Reset the ecu (assuming you've cleaned maf already) and see what it's like

Hehe, that made me chuckle! I did clean the maf a while back, it was pretty cruddy too:

Before:
(https://i.imgur.com/ChyeniR.jpg)

After:
(https://i.imgur.com/fAJ3e7Y.jpg)

I reset the ecu when I cleaned it (2 weeks ago) do you reckon it's probably best to do it again now there's a clean air filter too?

Yes absolutely. It'll have been trying to adjust fueling and timing frantically to compensate for the lack of air

Cheers for that advice @dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) and @Call the midlife! (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24360) I'll get a nice big set of Halfords spanners on my birthday or anniversary gift list :) I often spend ages in Halfords just lusting after all the gear, I'm surprised they haven't called the cops on me yet!  :D

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 13:13
Yes absolutely. It'll have been trying to adjust fueling and timing frantically to compensate for the lack of air

Will do, thanks for your input Patrick :)

After all that it will STILL be a loose connection. 

Haha. As well

Quote from: Carolyn on July 13, 2018, 14:32
After all that it will STILL be a loose connection.

Je
I take it you gave the 2 thin wires hidden up the body of the maf a squirt of cleaner as well when you done the maf.
Spray dont touch.

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 14:47
Haha. As well

Quote from: Carolyn on July 13, 2018, 14:32
After all that it will STILL be a loose connection.

I will get them, or else I will do a forfeit :)

Also @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891)  I got that stud from the Post Office on Monday, they'd slapped it with a blooming surcharge of £1.50 as it wouldn't go through the letter gauge they have, it was a very jobsworth though, I mean it was only as thick a blooming stud, even the post office guy seemed embarrassed that they'd slapped a charge on it.  :D

Quote from: Ardent on July 13, 2018, 17:28
Je
I take it you gave the 2 thin wires hidden up the body of the maf a squirt of cleaner as well when you done the maf.
Spray dont touch.

Hi Ardent, I did mate, just couldn't do a photo of those with my phone. Thanks for the reminder though :)

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 17:54

Quote from: shnazzle on July 13, 2018, 14:47
Haha. As well

Quote from: Carolyn on July 13, 2018, 14:32
After all that it will STILL be a loose connection.

I will get them, or else I will do a forfeit :)

Also @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891)  I got that stud from the Post Office on Monday, they'd slapped it with a blooming surcharge of £1.50 as it wouldn't go through the letter gauge they have, it was a very jobsworth though, I mean it was only as thick a blooming stud, even the post office guy seemed embarrassed that they'd slapped a charge on it.  :D

Sounds like the 3 trim screws I sent @Delhusband...


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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 13, 2018, 17:57

Quote from: je72 on July 13, 2018, 17:54
I got that stud from the Post Office on Monday, they'd slapped it with a blooming surcharge of £1.50

Sounds like the 3 trim screws I sent @Delhusband...

Royal Mail pinching the pennies  :)

I had the brace, hose and airbox out today while I tackled the gear linkage bushings (I'll post about bushings elsewhere to keep this about the starting issue, but oh my!  :P so I cleaned the 1st bundle of wires (the higher easier to access bundle) really well .They didn't actually look dirty or corroded in any way to be honest, but I cleaned em properly anyway  :) However I'm absolutely stumped how to get at that 2nd bundle of wires that are a bit lower down. My problem is that it sits behind a bracket and it also very tightly snugged up behind  a wiring loom anchoring point, I can't work out how to move the wiring loom out of the way in that area, it might be simple but it got me bamboozled. I've given it a bit of squirt with WD40 until I fathom out how to get at it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated :)

Don't be scared.  Just start removing bolts until you can get at it.  It will all go back together in reverse order.

I promise!

Quote from: Carolyn on July 15, 2018, 06:41
Don't be scared.  Just start removing bolts until you can get at it.  It will all go back together in reverse order.

I promise!

Hi @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) well suffice to say I haven't been able to pluck up the courage to do the 2nd bundle of earths  :-[ I'm worried sick I'll do more harm than good as the loom seems really tight in that area. I've been kind of living with the starting problem. I would say that it seems to be less frequent, but that's probably because I'm not jumping in it as often (catch 22) I really would like to get this sorted now, I'm planning on doing the Beaulieu tour with Stew, Simon and John next weekend.

Also I am starting to wonder if this could actually be my fuel pump/filter as I am now pretty sure all my tricky starts have been in the mornings, I was struggling to notice any pattern before, but here's what's happened this week:

Tuesday evening, started 1st time and drove absolutely beautifully she didn't skip a beat.

Yesterday morning - tricky start, followed by several stalls, but once I got her going, I had no problems for the rest of the morning or afternoon.

Today morning (again) no start, and I can't get her started. I know from experience that if I go back out in a while that she'll probably start (maybe this has been happening when the sun gets round and warms everything up?)

Also a little while ago, on the way home from Ding Day, I now recall that I put premium unleaded in (not something I'd done before or since) and I do remember the fuel gauge seemed to stick for a 100 miles or so (it didn't seem to be going down from 3/4 tank) then when I did notice that it had moved it was down to 1/4. I could have just been mistaken and not noticed but I do recall thinking, "hmm that doesn't seem to be going down, wonder if it's stuck"! I also gave it a proper good spirited drive on the way home. I haven't noticed the fuel gauge thing again since then. In fact I'd forgotten all about it until yesterday.

By coincidence I am going to Lincolnshire on Sunday till Wednesday, so I would be passing a fair bit closer to you than I normally would. Assuming you even have the time, would you mind if I called in on a day that suited you so that you could have a look at it with me? I'd happily bring some a bottle of your favourite tipple by way of a bribe! Don't worry if this is a no go though, it was just a though. Gosh I hope that isn't being too cheeky  :-[

I have family here from NZ foor the next three weeks.  So I'm not going to be available, I'm afraid.

Pluck up the courage, Man.  There's nothing particularly delicate in there!!

Quote from: Carolyn on July 20, 2018, 11:05
I have family here from NZ foor the next three weeks.  So I'm not going to be available, I'm afraid.

Pluck up the courage, Man.  There's nothing particularly delicate in there!!

OK, thanks anyway. Family travelling half way across the globe is a much more palatable distraction. Have fun :)

The other thing is would a tricky start caused by a loose earth only manifest itself from a cold start? Sorry if that's obvious, but I'd have though that I'd be getting the stalls and non starts at ANY time, not just when it's cold?

EDIT, Just want to make it clear I'm not questioning the advice, but as a noob I wanted to put my mind at rest because my intuition (and that's all I've got) tells me that a loose earth, is a loose earth regardless of the temperature of the engine. Like I say, once I get her going I don't have the stalls or the starting problem.  :-\

I've suspected fuel delivery for a while now. Could be as simple as a clog somewhere. Or the fuel pump itself has electric issues

Quote from: shnazzle on July 20, 2018, 11:52
I've suspected fuel delivery for a while now. Could be as simple as a clog somewhere. Or the fuel pump itself has electric issues

Do you know of a simple way to test the fuel pump etc? Of course it would have to be within my limited skill set.  But now I come to think of it, when it get a clear no start, I'm pretty sure I don't hear the fuel pump. Then during some of the "nearly" starts (when I hear  kind of clunk for want of a better description) I can hear a pump for a few moments. Should I always be able to hear the pump for a moment after I try to start?

Of course I guess after all this, it could be something else that is intermittently stopping the fuel pump. These faults a little blighters eh?

Maybe I should try to get it to a garage somewhere.

Edit: I know there's not much chance, but I just tried to call Steve at D1 as that is also on the way to Lincs, but no answer so left a message. To be honest he didn't reply to my previous message on Facebook either from a month or so ago about getting it booked in for a service, so I'm not holding out much hope. I suspect he's the busiest MR2 wrangler in the midlands.

Quote from: je72 on July 20, 2018, 12:16

Quote from: shnazzle on July 20, 2018, 11:52
I've suspected fuel delivery for a while now. Could be as simple as a clog somewhere. Or the fuel pump itself has electric issues

Do you know of a simple way to test the fuel pump etc? Of course it would have to be within my limited skill set.  But now I come to think of it, when it get a clear no start, I'm pretty sure I don't hear the fuel pump. Then during some of the "nearly" starts (when I hear  kind of clunk for want of a better description) I can hear a pump for a few moments. Should I always be able to hear the pump for a moment after I try to start?

Of course I guess after all this, it could be something else that is intermittently stopping the fuel pump. These faults a little blighters eh?

Maybe I should try to get it to a garage somewhere.

I find it difficult to get to the point where a garage is required. Simply because I've already built up a fair few experiences now where I actually knew better and resolved a problem they couldn't. So I've got little faith in generic garages.

People like Steve@D1 etc are another matter. He's a Toyota god.

The easiest way to test the fuel pump I think would be to replace it. It's easy to get to, remove and replace. Just don't smoke near it :)

You know where it is and you've been about 2 clips and a few bolts from removing it already. It's just sourcing one.
I paid 10 quid for one once.

I would try pulling the plug off the top of the pump and refitting to make sure it sits nicely. You'd be surprised how temperature can affect connectivity if there's a very tiny gap between electrodes. A bit of expansion/contraction can turn a weak connection into a strong one or vice versa.

Can I clarify. When you get a clunk start does she turn over? Or just clunk and then nothing else?

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:13
Can I clarify. When you get a clunk start does she turn over? Or just clunk and then nothing else?

Clunk then nothing, it stops cranking even with the key still turned, I have to release the key to try again. If I don't get the clunk it just keeps cranking. Does that make sense? I hate the sound TBH, feels wrong.

And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:51
And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The clunking and not starting definitely sounds like lack of starting power. You've done battery so it's just earth points and connections left. Then I'd be leaning towards the starter.

Not starting after that I think is a separate issue. That would then be fuel pump/lines/Injectors.

I think worst case is that they're interlinked and then I'd be thinking of the common element. Maybe intermittent ecu fault, but I wouldn't worry about that too much as I think it's unlikely.

Clean those earths!! Lol.

Quote from: je72 on July 20, 2018, 13:53

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:51
And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

Quote from: tricky1138 on July 20, 2018, 14:22

Quote from: je72 on July 20, 2018, 13:53

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:51
And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

If I remember isn't it the second stage of starting that could be a bit goosed? The actual motor turning? So the clunk is the pinion hitting the flywheel maybe?

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 14:24

Quote from: tricky1138 on July 20, 2018, 14:22

Quote from: je72 on July 20, 2018, 13:53

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:51
And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

If I remember isn't it the second stage of starting that could be a bit goosed? The actual motor turning? So the clunk is the pinion hitting the flywheel maybe?

I was thinking pinion disengaging clunk, but as you say it could be hitting the fly on the way back?

Quote from: tricky1138 on July 20, 2018, 14:28

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 14:24

Quote from: tricky1138 on July 20, 2018, 14:22

Quote from: je72 on July 20, 2018, 13:53

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:51
And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

If I remember isn't it the second stage of starting that could be a bit goosed? The actual motor turning? So the clunk is the pinion hitting the flywheel maybe?

I was thinking pinion disengaging clunk, but as you say it could be hitting the fly on the way back?

Ahh. Either or really :/.

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:57
The clunking and not starting definitely sounds like lack of starting power. You've done battery so it's just earth points and connections left. Then I'd be leaning towards the starter.

Not starting after that I think is a separate issue. That would then be fuel pump/lines/Injectors.

I think worst case is that they're interlinked and then I'd be thinking of the common element. Maybe intermittent ecu fault, but I wouldn't worry about that too much as I think it's unlikely.

Clean those earths!! Lol.

OK ok I'll clean the earths  :D in fact I just have cleaned the 2nd bundle of earths that @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) highlighted. It was fiddly for my sausage fingers but I managed (what a hero eh?) before I did so and just to make sure I didn't suffer from false dawn syndrome. I started the car as it was toasty hot now after baking in the sun for 3 hours. Guess what, started immediately, barely the hint of a crank, just vroom!

here is the 2nd budle, before the clean, they didn't look soiled to me, but I did as I was told :D

(https://i.imgur.com/m8x0IJZ.jpg)

Tried it again and it started, but more of a normal start, like duh,duh,duh, vroom!

Fingers crossed.  Had to be done.

And what have we learned?
The lesson involves a certain woman

Quote from: Carolyn on July 20, 2018, 15:14
Fingers crossed.  Had to be done.

Yes, actually wasn't as bad I thought after I'd undone that metal loom supporting bracket. It's just that it wasn't dirty so I don't think that's done it. Hope I'm wrong!

Quote from: shnazzle on July 20, 2018, 16:08
And what have we learned?
The lesson involves a certain woman

@Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) is amazing, literally a rocket scientist helping up with repairs. I'm not counting my chickens yet though, the car started before I cleaned those earths, I don't think I'm going to be that lucky.

I'll try the car nice and early tomorrow morning before the sun warms it up. {prays to the Toyota god of starting}

Quote from: tricky1138 on July 20, 2018, 14:22

Quote from: je72 on July 20, 2018, 13:53

Quote from: dan944 on July 20, 2018, 13:51
And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

Thanks so much for your advice @tricky1138 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18027) and @dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) I think this starter motor thing could be something. How easy would it be to check the earths and connections on starter motor? I don't even know where it is :D Also I have the problem that I can't get underneath the car, I have to park in street and I live on the side of the Malvern Hills.

Also just a thought, is there a way to methodically check through earths etc with a multimeter? the scattergun approach of trying to clean them all seems a little unsophisticated, or have I just got to suck it up?

There is no earth on the starter motor.  It earths through the gearbox and via the big earth connection on the top of the gearbox.  I have mentioned this before.  You have to remove the intake to see it.  If you follow the negative lead from the battery, it will lead you to it.

The approach is not 'scatter-gun', it's methodical. 

It is ONE of the several that need to be disconnected, cleaned and put back.  The crankshaft sensor earth is another.

There is no 'multi-meter shortcut', I'm afraid.  You just have to work through it.

If you  can't work on the car properly where you are, I suggest a friendly neighbour's driveway, or have a pro look at it.

You're still trying to do just one bit and hoping.  It doesn't work like that. :D

It's a process of elimination and it takes persistence.

C "It's a process of elimination and it takes persistence."

Je
Which you have done and continue to do. As demonstrated by now being on page 6.
No one or two liners.
Full descriptive replies on your findings with a healthy dash of humour.
That is commitment and dedication to the cause.
I doff my cap to you.
Well played.

Is it still behaving?

Quote from: Carolyn on July 25, 2018, 07:57
Is it still behaving?

Hi @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) well, yes to a fashion. I haven't had a no start or a stall since I cleaned that 2nd bundle of earth. But, I detected a slight hesitation a couple of times since, it's started 1st time every time since the earth cleaning but kind of had to build up to the cold start idling speed over a second or so, significantly different to how it "normally" starts. Also that has only happened maybe twice, the other 20 plus times it's started lovely, so I suspect I've still got work to do.

I've also been waiting for a replacement gear shift linkage bearing to arrive from Nathan (as I fouled one up during my previous installation) So when I have time I'll remove the cross brace and airbox and have a go at those other earths you mentioned. Ultimately I have also got to get at that crankshaft earth under the nappy. But 1st I have to borrow or buy ramps or axle stands. I have now located somewhere to do the work off the road so that's something :)

Progress, at least.

Keep up the good work! :)

Quote from: Carolyn on July 25, 2018, 10:07
Progress, at least.

Keep up the good work! :)

I haven't cleaned any more earths yet and was starting to hope that the problem might have finally gone. But I had another lazy start and stalling episode this morning. Ultimately I was able to get her going and once warmed up she carried on starting fine over several starts.

However I got some new codes so I'm just putting them up here in case it changes the way I should carry on (I know it probably doesn't but remember you are dealing with a blunt instrument in me)

Codes:

P0340 - Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P1300 - Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1
P1305 - Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 2
P1315 - Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 4

Which was all a bit of a shock as I'd only had the P0340 before! When I was furiously cranking with no start, I was hearing that "clunk" again which sounds like what @tricky1138 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18027) and @dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) were talking about being the solenoid.

@Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) noticed before that when I mess around with that "junction" of wires on the wiring harness that sits just to the left of the two little bunches of earthing points on the engine, I usually find that the starting issue improves. Is there a chance that they could be broken inside all the trunking? Does that kind of thig ever just happen?

I'll still carry on with the cleaning of earths, but just thought I'd mention all this incase someone more knowledgeable than me (so basically anyone) says, ah bingo! Do this or that. You can hope can't you?  ;)

All of that can be explained by a single bad connection..... 

Quote from: Carolyn on July 26, 2018, 12:15
All of that can be explained by a single bad connection.....

Thanks @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) for putting my mind at rest. Those fault codes were new, so I thought I should update the thread :)

I'd done a bit of googling and frightened myself silly, I even read that someone had to replace the PCM or ECU (are they different on our cars? Couldn't get to the bottom of that) because it had got damaged by water ingress from the rear storage bins. I got especially scared by that one as I had swimming pools a couple of times in the 1st couple of weeks of ownership until I learned how to clean the drains.  :o

To help me be methodical, I've found a diagram of the wiring loom and annotated the earth's I've cleaned so far:

(https://i.imgur.com/zsYSi5u.jpg)

There aren't anymore earths shown on that diagram, but I know that there are other earths in the engine bay, heck I can see a couple. To make sure I don't miss any, does anyone have a diagram (preferable) or a list so that I can go through them systematically and hopefully clean/sort/check all of them hopefully in one go?

Thanks in advance :)

Two important earths are not part of the loom.  The crankshaft sensor and the negative terminal from the battery to the gearbox (the main earth for the heavy voltage systems).

It could be that the harness itself is dodgy (not seen it before, but it must happen).

A replacement is not a lot from one of our breakers.

So, after 2 months of fault free starting, my intermittent stalling came back last Thursday which resulted in me getting my 2nd piggyback on a transporter of the summer :( Also I'm calling this stalling as I was able to restart the car several times (with difficulty) only to have it stall after a varying amount of time, but never more than a couple of minutes.

ODBII reader gave the same fault as before P0340, so I don't actually think it's anything new. One thing that has happened recently was that I had my clutch replaced last week which would have involved the wiring loom in the suspect area to be fiddled with. Rather than have the car bought back to mine, this time I elected to have the car taken to a local garage as I couldn't face anymore frustration and I think it's time an actual mechanic took a look.

The garage did try the obvious thing and change the camshaft sensor to a brand new one, but it didn't resolve the problem. They are now electing to bring in an external auto electrician to check the wiring, the scary thing was that it's a bit open ended now, they charge £45 +vat per hour and it could take all day, but they did try to reassure me that it doesn't normally take anything like that long, but did add that our cars were a pain to work on because the wiring was in such tight spaces and sometimes couldn't be accessed at all without removing stuff.

Please add my 2's wiring harness to your prayers  ;) :D

Lets hope you can start trusting the car again soon.

(And they find the problem quickly!).

It's not the loom I'll be praying for, top of my prayer list is your bank balance....... :)
Hope this sorts the issue though

Fingers crossed for you man

The prayers have failed. The garage called to tell me that the auto electrician could not find any fault with the electrics in the car. The only good news about this is that it only took him an hour to come to that solution, so plus the hour the garage spent putting on and taking off a new camshaft sensor I'm only up to 2 hours labour.

The bad news is that they are saying they now suspect the timing chain and are thinking that it could have become stretched  :( he went on to ask if i knew the full history and could there have been a time when it missed an oil change which could have introduced a problem with the chain tensioner which in turn could caused the chain to slip/stretch. He said to check it would take almost as long as to actually do the job and was in the region of £600  (:< >:) (:< >:) He also said they haven't been able to start it at all the times they've been looking at it.

Might @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) or any of the experienced members be able to offer any advice at this point? The garage are basically waiting to hear what to do next, I'm totally befuddled, £600 if it definitely fixes the problem is bad enough, but what if it actually isn't and it's something else?  :-\

Any advice gratefully received.

Hang on... So they are saying they can't start the car and they can't find the electrical issue?

There are plenty of options here, one of which is you get another loom and engine off a breaker for probably not much and then you get Steve@D1 to fit it for less than what your garage quoted you..

You can also try a different ECU from a breaker. I just don't buy the whole thing about the chain slipping, as that would still allow the engine to crank and you'd be able to check the timing to see if it was off... That honestly sounds like a load of poo to me.

John is absolutely correct.

You are dealing with rank amateurs.  A stretched timing chain could never cause an intermittent problem.  It doesn't 'un-stretch and' re-stretch'.  It's not an elastic band.  They are about to make a wrong £600 guess at your expense.

If the valve timing is out my so much that it won't start... well how come it does start and then doesn't??

This is ELECTRICAL not mechanical. Period!

The timing chain CAN be measured for stretch by just taking the cam-cover off.  Your lot have not a clue. That's the charitable view....

You have an intermittent electrical problem that comes and goes when the harness in one particular area is moved around.  Probably a wire or connection that is broken but touching, thus sometimes making a circuit and sometimes not.

Get your car out of there ASAP!!

I'd buy a harness off Dean at Rutland MR2 (about £50) and swap it.

Unfortunately Steve at D1 is not active at the moment. 

If you can get your car here, I'll help you through doing the job yourself, using my lift, my tools and my 'expertise'.

We've got a couple of members around here who would show up on a weekend and help out too, two of which have removed a harness with the engine in the car.  I never have - but it's just fiddly, not difficult or complex.

I've also got a spare working ECU in case...

Quote from: jvanzyl on October 10, 2018, 16:44
Hang on... So they are saying they can't start the car and they can't find the electrical issue?

That's what he said, he said something along the lines of (bear in mind I didn't record the conversation) "it's not good news I'm afraid, the auto electrician can't fault the wiring, we haven't been able to get it started at all while we've had it. The auto electrician has said that it almost started this morning when he looked at it. The only thing we can think now is that the timing chain could have stretched because that can happen, it happens to Hondas too. If we had been able to start it I could tell if the chain was stretched because of the noise it would make, the problem with your car is that to check it, it all has to be stripped out and at that stage you might as well do the job anyway in the region of £600, have a think about it, take your time and let us know what you want us to do"

Quote from: jvanzyl on October 10, 2018, 16:44

There are plenty of options here, one of which is you get another loom and engine off a breaker for probably not much and then you get Steve@D1 to fit it for less than what your garage quoted you..

You can also try a different ECU from a breaker. I just don't buy the whole thing about the chain slipping, as that would still allow the engine to crank and you'd be able to check the timing to see if it was off... That honestly sounds like a load of poo to me.

The engine still cranks when I turned the key (I'm assuming it did for them too) it just didn't start and that's the same as I had those couple of months ago. Immediately before this problem resurrected itself last week I had just given it a bit of welly, not over 5k revs but the stall happened quite soon (half a mile) after I'd done that. Not sure if that's relevant. :-\

Quote from: Carolyn on October 10, 2018, 16:54
John is absolutely correct.

You are dealing with rank amateurs.  A stretched timing chain could never cause an intermittent problem.  It doesn't 'un-stretch and' re-stretch'.  It's not an elastic band.  They are about to make a wrong £600 guess at your expense.

If the valve timing is out my so much that it won't start... well how come it does start and then doesn't??

This is ELECTRICAL not mechanical. Period!

The timing chain CAN be measured for stretch by just taking the cam-cover off.  Your lot have not a clue. That's the charitable view....

You have an intermittent electrical problem that comes and goes when the harness in one particular area is moved around.  Probably a wire or connection that is broken but touching, thus sometimes making a circuit and sometimes not.

Get your car out of there ASAP!!

I'd buy a harness off Dean at Rutland MR2 (about £50) and swap it.

Unfortunately Steve at D1 is not active at the moment. 

If you can get your car here, I'll help you through doing the job yourself, using my lift, my tools and my 'expertise'.

We've got a couple of members around here who would show up on a weekend and help out too, two of which have removed a harness with the engine in the car.  I never have - but it's just fiddly, not difficult or complex.

I've also got a spare working ECU in case...

I wish you lived nearer to you @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) I'm sure I wouldn't still be struggling. Of course I have the problem that if I can't start it I can't drive it you.

Do you or anybody have any experience of getting cars transported for reasonable money? Maybe I could try to get it to you, there doesn't seem to be anyone mechanically experienced with our cars near to me (I've previously asked on the other Facebook group too)

If you'd be prepared to have a look at it (and providing I could get her to you) I'd be over the moon!

Quote from: je72 on October 10, 2018, 17:30

Quote from: Carolyn on October 10, 2018, 16:54
John is absolutely correct.

You are dealing with rank amateurs.  A stretched timing chain could never cause an intermittent problem.  It doesn't 'un-stretch and' re-stretch'.  It's not an elastic band.  They are about to make a wrong £600 guess at your expense.

If the valve timing is out my so much that it won't start... well how come it does start and then doesn't??

This is ELECTRICAL not mechanical. Period!

The timing chain CAN be measured for stretch by just taking the cam-cover off.  Your lot have not a clue. That's the charitable view....

You have an intermittent electrical problem that comes and goes when the harness in one particular area is moved around.  Probably a wire or connection that is broken but touching, thus sometimes making a circuit and sometimes not.

Get your car out of there ASAP!!

I'd buy a harness off Dean at Rutland MR2 (about £50) and swap it.

Unfortunately Steve at D1 is not active at the moment. 

If you can get your car here, I'll help you through doing the job yourself, using my lift, my tools and my 'expertise'.

We've got a couple of members around here who would show up on a weekend and help out too, two of which have removed a harness with the engine in the car.  I never have - but it's just fiddly, not difficult or complex.

I've also got a spare working ECU in case...

I wish I lived nearer to you @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) I'm sure I wouldn't still be struggling. Of course I have the problem that if I can't start it I can't drive it you.

Do you or anybody have any experience of getting cars transported for reasonable money? Maybe I could try to get it to you, there doesn't seem to be anyone mechanically experienced with our cars near to me (I've previously asked on the other Facebook group too)

If you'd be prepared to have a look at it (and providing I could get her to you) I'd be over the moon!

The deal with me is:  I help and provide facilities.

You get stuck in.

No charge, just your effort and a chance to learn.

You come with the car, stay for the weekend and Bob's yer dog!!

If that's cool with you, get a quote for shifting the car.  No.  Get several quotes!!

'Goneroaming' did a full engine rebuild here.  So did JVanzyl

I'll  see what can be done about a loom.

Take the offer. TAKE IT!

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Quote from: Carolyn on October 10, 2018, 17:37
The deal with me is:  I help and provide facilities.

You get stuck in.

No charge, just your effort and a chance to learn.

You come with the car, stay for the weekend and Bob's yer dog!!

If that's cool with you, get a quote for shifting the car.  No.  Get several quotes!!

'Goneroaming' did a full engine rebuild here.  So did JVanzyl

I'll  see what can be done about a loom.

Bob's yer dog - funny enough he is called Bob. :)

Quote from: Carolyn on October 10, 2018, 17:37
The deal with me is:  I help and provide facilities.

You get stuck in.

No charge, just your effort and a chance to learn.

You come with the car, stay for the weekend and Bob's yer dog!!

If that's cool with you, get a quote for shifting the car.  No.  Get several quotes!!

'Goneroaming' did a full engine rebuild here.  So did JVanzyl

I'll  see what can be done about a loom.

Amazing!  :) I totally understand that it's up to me, even though I wasn't conveying it, I understood that I do the work under your guidance.

Just did a quote with anyvan and it came out to £161 so I'll do a bit more shopping around and see how we go.

Je72

As the least technical person here. Your post at the top of this page. Describing their conclusions.
They are talking utter b0ll0x.
They, as C said, are rank amateurs, having your pants down or both.

However you do it. Get it away from those numpties.

Who knows. It may actually start for you.

This is your best option.
It's an amazing opportunity. Go for it. £161 for transport plus £50 for a loom... And a MasterCard cannot cover what you'll learn from Carolyn...

Quote from: shnazzle on October 10, 2018, 17:42
Take the offer. TAKE IT!

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@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278)  There seems to be an overwhelming agreement that the garage you are dealing with are unfortunately of the type that give that trade a bad name.
I have mentioned on here previously my experiences with timing drives : geared VW, chain Fiat, and belt Ford and I can say from my experiences that when this element goes wrong it stays wrong. It is not an intermittent fault.

Quote from: Joesson on October 10, 2018, 19:25
@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278)  There seems to be an overwhelming agreement that the garage you are dealing with are unfortunately of the type that give that trade a bad name.
I have mentioned on here previously my experiences with timing drives : geared VW, chain Fiat, and belt Ford and I can say from my experiences that when this element goes wrong it stays wrong. It is not an intermittent fault.

Agreed @Joesson (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18231) I actually found that thread in the course of my research/panic

The thing is, this garage are independant and also an MOT centre, I've been using then for several years, they have a fantastic reputation are frequently recommended in my local area, they know me well and I felt that I trusted them too. Up until this point I've never had a reason to question any diagnosis or invoice, in fact I've always been very happy with them. I'm not sure why they seem to have "dropped the bat" on this one, maybe they just don't like the MR2's challenging setup  :-\

I think I will call them again tomorrow and ask him to go through his diagnosis again, not that it will change the course of action in trying to get it to Carolyn's place, but something just doesn't stack up.

Spoken to the garage again, I asked them to clarify what was said to me yesterday as it had caused a fair bit of consternation in these parts.

They pretty much confirmed that an auto-electrician had spent an hour on the car, who had come to the conclusion that there was no fault with the wiring. So he (the auto elec) suggested it was mechanical, the garage are saying that the next best thing to try (and they are freely admitting that there is no guarantee that this will work) is the timing chain. They advised me today that to get to the cam cover and check the chain requires a lot of work, I think she said like 2 hours just to get to it and that's why they suggested possibly replacing anyway it as it wouldn't be much more labour anyway.

They also reconfirmed that neither they or the auto electrician had been able to start the car (although they did say that it "wanted to start") but I do know that it has been moved from the place I originally left it, having driven it with the engine running into position last week.

It's a shame because I've always had a really good relationship with them, but I could tell they did not like the fact that I was getting advice from elsewhere and calling what they were saying into question, I got the "well if they want to come and get it and have a go with it they are welcome" :( to give them credit they've seen the car and you guys have only ever had my descriptions of the faults, as you'll know I'm very much a blunt tool in this respect so who knows if I've missed something important  :-\ plus I think to a professional garage, being 2nd guessed from forums probably gets their goat.

What I've decided to do, I'm going down tomorrow to see if I can start her, if I can, (which would be a bit of a miracle considering they can't) I'll try to bring her home (1.5 miles) I will then get her transported to Carolyn and under her guidance try to resolve the issue. Either that or I cut my losses and see if anyone wants to buy her in this condition  :'(

I'll keep you posted

I know it can feel uncomfortable when speaking to a garage who is used to telling you how it is.

But the reality is that I as even a rank amateur can tell you that I can get to the position of checking timing within 15 minutes...MAX

It's very easy and they have just shown you that they are not interested in doing a good job. I'd also all for the contact details of the electrician so you can follow up with him. If they resist then you really know something is up as you've paid for the service.

If you can't start it, then I'm sure your can get it transported from the garage. The sooner youre shot of them the better.

Sorry to hear the saga is still not resolved.

Sadly it sounds like another garage that doesnt understand these cars and is maybe afraid of the mid engine?

Hopefully you can get it running as if you break down again you could get it transported to Carolyns by your breakdown service?

Worth mentioning that law of the mechanic is that once someone says someone else had a better idea, that's it. You're getting your food spat on :)

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Quote from: Topdownman on October 11, 2018, 11:45
Sorry to hear the saga is still not resolved.

Sadly it sounds like another garage that doesnt understand these cars and is maybe afraid of the mid engine?

Hopefully you can get it running as if you break down again you could get it transported to Carolyns by your breakdown service?

Now that is an interesting idea! But I suspect if I try to call them out for the same fault, they might not cover it. I'm with that same crew as you Autoaid. I'll have a dig through my policy document.

je72 is having it trailered here for the weekend of the 27th Oct.

We're going to swap out the harness. 

Any physical assistance would be appreciated. 

This is a proper Roadster Rescue job!

Just got off the phone with Carolyn who has put my mind at rest, she knows these cars so well and explained stuff in a way that even I could understand. So I've put to bed any silly notions of letting her go and we are going to get the car up to her place in the next couple of weeks and see if we can't rescue her.  :D

I'll come over.

Quote from: jonbill on October 11, 2018, 13:25
I'll come over.

That would be awesome, I'm buying the beers/wine/coffee/Pork Scratchings  :D

It'll be the points, its always the points, just spray everything with wd40 and it'll start like a good 'un!
Good luck with finding an answer, I know what it's like having a car you don't trust.


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At least with you doing it yourself it will give you a better understanding of the car, which can only be good for any future problems you may encounter.
Don't be too hard on the mechanics, the rarity of these cars means they are almost always clutching at straws as it an unknown quantity. My mechanic can fix Peugeot's to Renault vans no problem, but the MR2 gave him some wtf moments...

I have some sympathy for modern mechanics, who aren't trained to diagnose and repair.. They are in the parts replacement biz these days.

However (there's always a 'however'), The 1ZZ went in the RAV4,  the Avensis, the Celica and close variants thereof went into just about every other Toyota for around ten years.  So it should not be such a mystery.  Same electrics, same mechanicals.

Whether the engine is in front or back is irrelevant.

Fair point.
I do think access to things is a bit of an issue however, I remember my mechanic thinking something was simple until he had to access it.

Just wondering one thing. Not sure if this has been covered and I'm too lazy to read back;

When I first got that Toyota OBD2 app, I was playing around with all the options and I changed my vvt angle.
Car instantly stalled and wouldn't start again until I put the power on and changed the setting back.

Is there any way this could be an intermittent vvti issue?


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possible - but unlikely.

If you go back through the thread the problem has appeared and disappeared when the wiring at the left-hand end of the engine has been handled/moved.

It then went away for some time until a clutch job (major harness waggling) and then it came back.

We'll check the oil control valve and filter while we have the alternator loose.

@Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891), in the 60''s and 70's before low cost/ compact instrumentation, circuit continuity in lift / shafts systems was tested with a battery operated bell and lamp indicator, was such a system ever used on motor vehicles?

Yep.  A little box with a battery, a buzzer and some crocodile clips. 

With a variation for testing points opening using a light bulb.  When it barely lows the points are just opening.

Still handy tools....

I made up the "variation" must have been pre 1970, t had blue rubber insulated cable, mini croc clips and a bulb and holder. The last time I used it was on my wife's Fiesta last Century!
It only recently went in the bin as I doubt I'll be setting points again.

Quote from: Carolyn on October 11, 2018, 14:43
I have some sympathy for modern mechanics, who aren't trained to diagnose and repair.. They are in the parts replacement biz these days.

However (there's always a 'however'), The 1ZZ went in the RAV4,  the Avensis, the Celica and close variants thereof went into just about every other Toyota for around ten years.  So it should not be such a mystery.  Same electrics, same mechanicals.

Whether the engine is in front or back is irrelevant.

Have been thinking exactly the same myself for 2 pages.
The car is rare the engine is as common as muck.

It's a shame really. I have a lot of faith in us "forum mechanics" by the sheer power of multiple brains tackling one problem.

I've definitely experienced what Carolyn is talking about with our old Jag. It went to a Jag dealer garage with all of the official Jag kit and they could not figure out the issue. I was sent home without an answer.

It took me a further 2hrs or so of googling and some binary to decimal conversions from the "engineer mode" on the car to come up with the problem.

The software didn't show this so that was the end of the line for them. Had they used the "old school" onboard diagnostics and translated the binary codes presented on the little screen in the dash they would have sent me home happy.

A mechanic can't be expected to know everything about every car.

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I accept that many main dealers can't diagnose their older cars, but I'm not sympathetic. Cars are built on platforms which only change slowly. They don't have to understand every car, just the generations of platforms. I would expect a main dealer to be able to diagnose any one of their cars from the last 20 years at least.
They're just greedy. They want £50+ /hr from their customers but only pay the mechanics a fraction of that. So they have high turn over and low skill.

Well yes. I suppose nobody shows me any sympathy if I didn't sort out some 3rd party supplier because I didn't know I needed it.

I guess we all have a job to do and rarely does anybody know it all for every technology/car

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One of the hardest things for many people to say:

"I don't know".

Quote from: shnazzle on October 12, 2018, 08:36
Well yes. I suppose nobody shows me any sympathy if I didn't sort out some 3rd party supplier because I didn't know I needed it.

I guess we all have a job to do and rarely does anybody know it all for every technology/car

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Although I met a few that thought they did in my technology.
They can be worse than those that admit bafflement.

Quote from: Carolyn on October 12, 2018, 09:35
One of the hardest things for many people to say:

"I don't know".

Haha! I say it ALL the time.
I absolutely detest it when people clearly don't know something and pretend they do.

Which is why Helen always leaves when I need to ask a Curry's salesman a question

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Quote from: shnazzle on October 12, 2018, 09:47

Quote from: Carolyn on October 12, 2018, 09:35
One of the hardest things for many people to say:

"I don't know".

Haha! I say it ALL the time.
I absolutely detest it when people clearly don't know something and pretend they do.

Which is why Helen always leaves when I need to ask a Curry's salesman a question

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It's like the staff at DIY places most have no idea about anything they sell.

Update, I had planned on going to the garage this morning to see if I could fluke getting the car started and get it the short(ish) trip home. However as it's in their uncovered car park and we have 24 hours of heavy rain forecast I've decided to give that a swerve. I called them to explain and they were really understanding and said I didn't need to worry about moving the car till next week.

I also advised that I've had the offer of an expert MR2 owner. They actually agreed that was probably for the best, they also conceded that they had reservations about auto-electricians diagnosis too  8) they said if it turns out that it was the wiring, could I let them know as they might re-evaluate who the subcontract electrical diagnosis to.

Quote from: je72 on October 12, 2018, 10:00
Update, I had planned on going to the garage this morning to see if I could fluke getting the car started and get it the short(ish) trip home. However as it's in their uncovered car park and we have 24 hours of heavy rain forecast I've decided to give that a swerve. I called them to explain and they were really understanding and said I didn't need to worry about moving the car till next week.

I also advised that I've had the offer of an expert MR2 owner. They actually agreed that was probably for the best, they also conceded that they had reservations about auto-electricians diagnosis too  8) they said if it turns out that it was the wiring, could I let them know as they might re-evaluate who the subcontract electrical diagnosis to.

That's a really honest and respectable answer. Kudos to them

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Quote from: shnazzle on October 12, 2018, 10:38

Quote from: je72 on October 12, 2018, 10:00
Update, I had planned on going to the garage this morning to see if I could fluke getting the car started and get it the short(ish) trip home. However as it's in their uncovered car park and we have 24 hours of heavy rain forecast I've decided to give that a swerve. I called them to explain and they were really understanding and said I didn't need to worry about moving the car till next week.

I also advised that I've had the offer of an expert MR2 owner. They actually agreed that was probably for the best, they also conceded that they had reservations about auto-electricians diagnosis too  8) they said if it turns out that it was the wiring, could I let them know as they might re-evaluate who the subcontract electrical diagnosis to.

That's a really honest and respectable answer. Kudos to them

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Plus one on that, especially as you still don't actually know what's causing it.


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+1
They have just gone back up a bit in my estimation.

Quote from: Carolyn on October 12, 2018, 09:35
One of the hardest things for many people to say:

"I don't know".

When you know as little a I do.
It becomes quite easy.
I've had lots of practice.

Quote from: shnazzle on October 12, 2018, 07:32
A mechanic can't be expected to know everything about every car.

I agree.
Caveat. On the face of it, we are still looking at an electrical fault.
This seems a purely methodical diagnostic issue.

Quote from: Ardent on October 12, 2018, 14:08

Quote from: shnazzle on October 12, 2018, 07:32
A mechanic can't be expected to know everything about every car.

I agree.
Caveat. On the face of it, we are still looking at an electrical fault.
This seems a purely methodical diagnostic issue.

Steady Jase with that statement, you will have to go and sit down after that. :D :)

This is what happens if the grape juice in the blood volume drops too low.
Will be restoring the correct balance later with the juice of some tempranillo grapes.  ;)

So the story continues! I had a call from the garage today. I had been planning on going to try and start her, but as it's rained all day I'd decided to wait until tomorrow. I thought they were going ask where I was. However they told me again about how they had been a little unsure of the auto electricians diagnosis and that because they had a cancellation on Saturday, they had managed to have another look at the car. Low and behold, with a little bit of loom waggling they were able to start her! They were also able to replicate the stall when they tried to drive it over the ramp bumps! They said they were able to pretty much pinpoint the area of the loom that they think is responsible. They did also say that sometimes no amount of waggling seemed to work whilst other times it did, so it's not exactly "in the bag yet". They ran out of time on Saturday and they are now proposing to have another look on Wednesday. They said that no way was it the timing chain as they listened to it while it was running and that they wouldn't charge me for the hours labour for the auto electrician and that they wouldn't be paying him either!

I'll update you on Wednesday!  ::)

Things could be getting better for you Je. I have posted my " thoughts" on the subject in my daily.

Result! And the club is right once again :)

Garage doing a stellar bit of customer service there as well

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Are you still bringing it here for a loom swap?

Quote from: Carolyn on October 15, 2018, 19:29
Are you still bringing it here for a loom swap?

Well, that is the million dollar question. I wanted to see what they come up with on Wednesday before I pull the plug on our loom swapping shenanigans, but if they fix it then I won't need to be a burden to you and @jonbill (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23089)  . This time. :D

I'm concerned that the loom has been damaged (possibly crushed) at some point and there may be more than one fault.

Also, opening up the loom is easy enough.  Tracing the actual fault is another matter.

Let's see how it goes.

(I did say that I bet it starts if you give it a good waggle!!)

Quote from: Carolyn on October 15, 2018, 20:02
I'm concerned that the loom has been damaged (possibly crushed) at some point and there may be more than one fault.

Also, opening up the loom is easy enough.  Tracing the actual fault is another matter.

Let's see how it goes.

(I did say that I bet it starts if you give it a good waggle!!)

I do have the same concerns, let's see what they come up with on Wednesday. If they come up with a good explanation as to the erratic nature of the problem and can actually point to the break in the loom or something like that then maybe I'll hold fire. But for £45 (loom) and some scraped knuckles I might still be tempted to pop over.

@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278), I for one am eagerly waiting for the next instalment in this saga. Any news, or still work in progress?

Quote from: Joesson on October 18, 2018, 12:16
@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278), I for one am eagerly waiting for the next instalment in this saga. Any news, or still work in progress?

Hi @Joesson (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18231) you and me both!  ;) They didn't call yesterday and I hadn't wanted to call them for the fear of bad news! (silly I know!) But I decided to call them just now. They are pretty sure having spent an hour yesterday and today and having traced the wiring that it may actually be the crank sensor that is at fault. They said it was covered in antifreeze because my water pump had been leaking (anyone remember that from when I had my pre-cats deleted by Mr Twos in Willenhall? We had collectively decided at Ding Day that the water pump was fine and it was nothing to worry about, so  :-\ ) anyway they have one on order (crank sensor) along with a water pump and now after having spoken to them a Gates auxiliary belt (I knew that needed dong anyway) So I back to keeping my fingers crossed, and sweating on the bill, because I only really had £300 spare, but that lot sounds to me like we are going to be North of that figure  :'(

Hopefully I'll be asble update later on or tomorrow morning  :(

@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278) — I do hope this works out for you.

So I don't have her back but the garage are saying it's fixed and is starting perfectly  :D

Here's the lowdown:

The crank sensor was covered in antifreeze. This was traced back to a leaky water pump, now I know it couldn't have been leaking much as I had been keeping an eye on coolant levels and it's had about 300ml  sorry 200ml in 4 months, all the same if that 200ml had all ended up on the crank sensor I can see why it could cause a problem. When I had me pre-cats removed back in June, the garage I used did suggest that the water pump was leaking so we collectively had a look at it during ding day 2018 and it was decided that there wasn't any problem with the water pump. Maybe (probably) it just got worse. So they changed the crank sensor and the car started perfectly time after time. They changed the water pump and the aux belt for a Gates one for good measure. They also took the cam cover off and checked the timing, they said i was perfect and that usually older cars are all black and gammy inside that area but mine looked like a new engine!  :D He put that down to the fact it had obviously been well maintained with oil and filter changes. All in including diagnosis, new crank sensor, new water pump, new antifreeze and a new aux belt we are up to just under £400. I actually think that sounds ok for all that lot and to be honest if that is the end of my intermittent fault once and for all, I'll be over the moon.

The only thing that the garage were still a bit befuddled about was why wagging the loom near the earths on the left hand top side of the engine, sometimes seemed to sometimes bring things to life when the fault was the other side underneath.  :-\

Strange one but a good result all the same.

That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

Quote from: dan944 on October 18, 2018, 20:15
That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  :P

Quote from: je72 on October 18, 2018, 20:35

Quote from: dan944 on October 18, 2018, 20:15
That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  :P

I know, I'm sorry. All hopes are that it's fine.

But to be truthful. I'd want the comfort that they tried to make it stall again. Or even swapped back to the old sensor to make sure the fault came back.

Quote from: dan944 on October 18, 2018, 20:39

Quote from: je72 on October 18, 2018, 20:35

Quote from: dan944 on October 18, 2018, 20:15
That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  :P

I know, I'm sorry. All hopes are that it's fine.

But to be truthful. I'd want the comfort that they tried to make it stall again. Or even swapped back to the old sensor to make sure the fault came back.

They are good considerations. All the info was gleaned from a telephone update. I'll ask them the above points tomorrow before I actually go back to pick up the car. The only problem is that this was intermittent and there's every chance that if they put the old sensor back in it might actually work now it's been fiddled with 😉 but still have been the fault. I think only time will tell.

Quote from: dan944 on October 18, 2018, 20:39

Quote from: je72 on October 18, 2018, 20:35

Quote from: dan944 on October 18, 2018, 20:15
That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  [emoji14]

I know, I'm sorry. All hopes are that it's fine.

But to be truthful. I'd want the comfort that they tried to make it stall again. Or even swapped back to the old sensor to make sure the fault came back.

That's a good shout. The crank sensor is easy enough  to swap, so if it's the problem you should be able to fix and recreate the problem at will.

I can't believe you've paid good money for the totally unnecessary removal of the timing cover.  There was never a timing problem.  Your garage may be doing their best, but they really don't have the diagnostic skills.  They are guessing at your expense.

You still have a problem in the loom.

The crank sensor is a sealed unit.  Lots of us run without nappies under the engine, which means the bottom of the engine can get wet from weather and puddles.  The crank sensor is not affected.

You, and the garage, have the evidence of the effect of waggling the harness, and then choose to ignore it.

My prediction:  The fault will resurface.

Sorry to be so blunt, but It's frustrating to have offered the solution (a lot less than £400) only to be ignored.

Quote from: Carolyn on October 19, 2018, 03:33
I can't believe you've paid good money for the totally unnecessary removal of the timing cover.  There was never a timing problem.  Your garage may be doing their best, but they really don't have the diagnostic skills.  They are guessing at your expense.

You still have a problem in the loom.

The crank sensor is a sealed unit.  Lots of us run without nappies under the engine, which means the bottom of the engine can get wet from weather and puddles.  The crank sensor is not affected.

You, and the garage, have the evidence of the effect of waggling the harness, and then choose to ignore it.

My prediction:  The fault will resurface.

Sorry to be so blunt, but It's frustrating to have offered the solution (a lot less than £400) only to be ignored.

Hi Carolyn, sorry you feel that I've ignored your offers of help, I don't feel like that, in fact I feel the opposite. I've been very grateful (and still am) for all the help this amazing bunch of Mr Two aficionados have given me (especially you @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) ) . You know that I don't consider myself very talented with car fettling, I've mentioned that several times along the way. But I've diligently (as far as I can) been doing the stuff that has been suggested by the forum including buying a new battery, cleaning earths, changing the camshaft sensor all of which ultimately didn't resolve the problem. I'm not complaining, I went along with this happily and I understood it was a process of elimination. However there had already been expense in terms of both time and money and my car still had a problem that took the edge off my enjoyment. When I got transported after the last batch of stalls I had been in some pretty unnerving positions on roads that you don't want to stall on. I resolved to allow someone who was an expert to have a look at it as I just wanted it driveable again, hence it went to the garage. I carried on posting for continuity and so that anyone in future who this might help could see all the story.

One thing I stupidly forgot to mention in my last update is that the garage also told me that had opened up the loom and checked most of it for damage apart from the bits they couldn't physically get to. I remember him saying they traced the wiring all the way to the crankshaft sensor. I didn't drill down into that last night with them because there was a fair bit of info being passed over (as above) but I will today. It may be that they have actually conclusively tested the loom  :-\ I'll also ask them if they've vigorously waggled the loom AFTER they felt that they'd decided they'd resolved the problem and if they took it for a test drive on a bumpy road (there are plenty of those round here!)

Their diagnosis also makes sense to me (admittedly I'm a non car techie). Right back at the beginning of all this I remember after a google trawl for P0340 error codes (it might have been this one https://www.obd-codes.com/p0340 ) it was suggested that if the camshaft sensor wasn't at fault it could be the crankshaft sensor as they work together. When I was being transported by the recovery truck I tried to pump the recovery driver (who was also a mechanic) for his opinion, he wasn't very forthcoming but he said if it wasn't the camshaft sensor it would probably be the crankshaft sensor! Somehow in my haste to give the garage the history of the intermittent problem (possibly I was determined to blame the loom because of the waggling etc) I never mentioned this. It's possible that all along the loom waggling has been a red herring. Sometimes the car would start after refusing to, just after a little time had passed (that was mentioned somewhere in the saga) without any loom waggling and sometimes it wouldn't start even with extensive loom waggling.

Now add to the fact that another garage (an MR2 specialist) during the removal of my pre-cats advised me that I had a leaky water pump. I was alarmed I raised that to the forum and again I had amazing support (especially considering I was a noob! :) ) it was agreed we'd collectively take a look at ding day, we did so,  and it was decided at that point there wasn't a problem with the water pump. Fast forward 3 months and another garage has said I had a leaky water pump. Now could it be that it had worsened significantly in that time or could it be that we misdiagnosed it? My regular garage said the crankshaft sensor was "drenched" in antifreeze. As far as I know, antifreeze is corrosive and not a solution you want to have sitting on an engine component for a very long time, so it kind of figures. They changed the crankshaft sensor and it fired every time repeatedly.

I don't really know what else to say apart from thanks very much for the help, I will let you know how it pans out. Maybe I actually had/have TWO problems! Time will tell.

Your engine is full of anti-freeze.  It is a corrosion inhibitor.

As for the valve timing:
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=65009.0

I tried.

Just got off the phone to the garage, probably should have done this before my last long post. I bought up the reservations.

They have checked the WHOLE WIRING LOOM, they had it all off the car and said it's all good.

They checked the crankshaft sensor for continuity, once it was removed from the car, it was faulty.

I'm back to them being pissed off with me because I questioned them.

Happy days!

Wow Carolyn you gave je72  both barrels  :-)

Je72 give the mechanics a few beer tokens, they'll soon forgive you. Also hope it's all sorted now for your sake, otherwise Carolyn will be hanging you with that loom  :o

@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278) said:
"I'm back to them being pissed off with me because I questioned them."

As you say Je this garage has been in business for some time, they will have had many customers, all with different problems and concerns. On this occassion they have been working on an unfamiliar vehicle with what is undeniably, from the collective experience on here, an unusual problem- intermittent starting.
I recall they admitted their bafflement.*
You have offered advice gleaned from this forum. I suggest that those comments caused them to look outside of the box( as the expression goes).
They really should not give the impression that they are "pissed off" with you.
You are the Customer, you and others are what they rely on for what they will be asking from you.
*Addendum-
1: At one time they "thought the timing chain had stretched" and that would be £600! Until you/ we told them that was not the case.
2: The Auto Electrician, employed by the Garage, advised that he"could not fault the wiring" whereas my understanding is that the Crank Shaft position sensor is an electronic device. One might assume that any test of "the wiring" would include essential components connected to the wiring circuit.

Quote from: Joesson on October 19, 2018, 18:01
@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278) said:
"I'm back to them being pissed off with me because I questioned them."

As you say Je this garage has been in business for some time, they will have had many customers, all with different problems and concerns. On this occassion they have been working on an unfamiliar vehicle with what is undeniably, from the collective experience on here, an unusual problem- intermittent starting.
I recall they admitted their bafflement.*
You have offered advice gleaned from this forum. I suggest that those comments caused them to look outside of the box( as the expression goes).
They really should not give the impression that they are "pissed off" with you.
You are the Customer, you and others are what they rely on for what they will be asking from you.
*Addendum-
1: At one time they "thought the timing chain had stretched" and that would be £600! Until you/ we told them that was not the case.
2: The Auto Electrician, employed by the Garage, advised that he"could not fault the wiring" whereas my understanding is that the Crank Shaft position sensor is an electronic device. One might assume that any test of "the wiring" would include essential components connected to the wiring circuit.

Everything you've said there is true @Joesson (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18231) When I went to see them to pick the car up it was all back to happy families.

I'm not sure why they decided to take the cam cover off, it's not the course of action we had agreed. However I know they didn't charge me for all the time they spent on it.

What's almost comical is that the driver of the recovery truck said during the drive "if it's not the Camshaft sensor it'll be the crank sensor because they work together" Maybe I should go to him in future!  :)

Ultimately the car seems to be starting and running lovely now

I think things got fractious because of the frustrating nature of a fault like this.

I'm most disappointed by the fact that @Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) become frustrated too, I was and am very grateful for all her help. As @wotugonado (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16433) says let's hope she doesn't have an excuse to throttle me with my loom in the future!  :D

@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278)  , I do hope that this is the end of this particular story and that everybody involved will be happy ever after.

Quote from: Joesson on October 22, 2018, 21:36
@je72 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25278)  , I do hope that this is the end of this particular story and that everybody involved will be happy ever after.

If not, then I know someone who has a loom.......you'll need to be a braver man than I though  ;)

Interesting thread as I've had my share of crank / cam sensor problems. A faulty cam sensor will usually throw a code but a crank sensor may not because the ecu can't recognize that the engine is turning over unless it is working so won't fuel or spark the engine.

I'd get the mobile number of the recovery mechanic  ;)
Glad you got it sorted.

I'm glad that it seems to be sorted.  Fingers crossed.