Intermittent Starting Problem

[dan944]

And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

If I remember isn't it the second stage of starting that could be a bit goosed? The actual motor turning? So the clunk is the pinion hitting the flywheel maybe?

[tricky1138]

And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

If I remember isn't it the second stage of starting that could be a bit goosed? The actual motor turning? So the clunk is the pinion hitting the flywheel maybe?

I was thinking pinion disengaging clunk, but as you say it could be hitting the fly on the way back?

[dan944]

And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

If I remember isn't it the second stage of starting that could be a bit goosed? The actual motor turning? So the clunk is the pinion hitting the flywheel maybe?

I was thinking pinion disengaging clunk, but as you say it could be hitting the fly on the way back?

Ahh. Either or really :/.

[je72]

The clunking and not starting definitely sounds like lack of starting power. You've done battery so it's just earth points and connections left. Then I'd be leaning towards the starter.

Not starting after that I think is a separate issue. That would then be fuel pump/lines/Injectors.

I think worst case is that they're interlinked and then I'd be thinking of the common element. Maybe intermittent ecu fault, but I wouldn't worry about that too much as I think it's unlikely.

Clean those earths!! Lol.

OK ok I'll clean the earths  in fact I just have cleaned the 2nd bundle of earths that @Carolyn highlighted. It was fiddly for my sausage fingers but I managed (what a hero eh?) before I did so and just to make sure I didn't suffer from false dawn syndrome. I started the car as it was toasty hot now after baking in the sun for 3 hours. Guess what, started immediately, barely the hint of a crank, just vroom!

here is the 2nd budle, before the clean, they didn't look soiled to me, but I did as I was told



Tried it again and it started, but more of a normal start, like duh,duh,duh, vroom!

[Carolyn]

Fingers crossed.  Had to be done.

[shnazzle]

And what have we learned?
The lesson involves a certain woman

[je72]

Fingers crossed.  Had to be done.

Yes, actually wasn't as bad I thought after I'd undone that metal loom supporting bracket. It's just that it wasn't dirty so I don't think that's done it. Hope I'm wrong!

And what have we learned?
The lesson involves a certain woman

@Carolyn is amazing, literally a rocket scientist helping up with repairs. I'm not counting my chickens yet though, the car started before I cleaned those earths, I don't think I'm going to be that lucky.

I'll try the car nice and early tomorrow morning before the sun warms it up. {prays to the Toyota god of starting}

[je72]

And when it does keep cranking it starts?

Sorry for the bluntness. Just thinking.

Usually I would say I can get it to start if it keeps cranking. But a couple of times it just didn't want to know (like this morning) that's when it does it's funky clunking, but even that isn't every time I try.

For eg:

1 - Crank no start
2 - Crank no start
3 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
4 - Crank no start
5 - Crank - Clunk - No start - Stops cranking
6 - Crank no start
7 - Crank no start

That kind of thing.

The above does sound like a loose wire / earth.

When the starter motor is activated a solenoid moves a heavy rod. Maybe it is the rod you are hearing as the clunk?

Eg. On try 3, the starter engages, but the movement of the starter/engine moves the wires and the rod disengages, hence the cranking stops.


I agree with Dan, the not starting could be a separate issue.

Thanks so much for your advice @tricky1138 and @dan944 I think this starter motor thing could be something. How easy would it be to check the earths and connections on starter motor? I don't even know where it is Also I have the problem that I can't get underneath the car, I have to park in street and I live on the side of the Malvern Hills.

Also just a thought, is there a way to methodically check through earths etc with a multimeter? the scattergun approach of trying to clean them all seems a little unsophisticated, or have I just got to suck it up?

[Carolyn]

There is no earth on the starter motor.  It earths through the gearbox and via the big earth connection on the top of the gearbox.  I have mentioned this before.  You have to remove the intake to see it.  If you follow the negative lead from the battery, it will lead you to it.

The approach is not 'scatter-gun', it's methodical. 

It is ONE of the several that need to be disconnected, cleaned and put back.  The crankshaft sensor earth is another.

There is no 'multi-meter shortcut', I'm afraid.  You just have to work through it.

If you  can't work on the car properly where you are, I suggest a friendly neighbour's driveway, or have a pro look at it.

You're still trying to do just one bit and hoping.  It doesn't work like that.

It's a process of elimination and it takes persistence.

[Ardent]

C "It's a process of elimination and it takes persistence."

Je
Which you have done and continue to do. As demonstrated by now being on page 6.
No one or two liners.
Full descriptive replies on your findings with a healthy dash of humour.
That is commitment and dedication to the cause.
I doff my cap to you.
Well played.

[Carolyn]

Is it still behaving?

[je72]

Is it still behaving?

Hi @Carolyn well, yes to a fashion. I haven't had a no start or a stall since I cleaned that 2nd bundle of earth. But, I detected a slight hesitation a couple of times since, it's started 1st time every time since the earth cleaning but kind of had to build up to the cold start idling speed over a second or so, significantly different to how it "normally" starts. Also that has only happened maybe twice, the other 20 plus times it's started lovely, so I suspect I've still got work to do.

I've also been waiting for a replacement gear shift linkage bearing to arrive from Nathan (as I fouled one up during my previous installation) So when I have time I'll remove the cross brace and airbox and have a go at those other earths you mentioned. Ultimately I have also got to get at that crankshaft earth under the nappy. But 1st I have to borrow or buy ramps or axle stands. I have now located somewhere to do the work off the road so that's something

[Carolyn]

Progress, at least.

Keep up the good work!

[je72]

Progress, at least.

Keep up the good work!

I haven't cleaned any more earths yet and was starting to hope that the problem might have finally gone. But I had another lazy start and stalling episode this morning. Ultimately I was able to get her going and once warmed up she carried on starting fine over several starts.

However I got some new codes so I'm just putting them up here in case it changes the way I should carry on (I know it probably doesn't but remember you are dealing with a blunt instrument in me)

Codes:

P0340 - Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
P1300 - Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 1
P1305 - Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 2
P1315 - Igniter Circuit Malfunction No. 4

Which was all a bit of a shock as I'd only had the P0340 before! When I was furiously cranking with no start, I was hearing that "clunk" again which sounds like what @tricky1138 and @dan944 were talking about being the solenoid.

@Carolyn noticed before that when I mess around with that "junction" of wires on the wiring harness that sits just to the left of the two little bunches of earthing points on the engine, I usually find that the starting issue improves. Is there a chance that they could be broken inside all the trunking? Does that kind of thig ever just happen?

I'll still carry on with the cleaning of earths, but just thought I'd mention all this incase someone more knowledgeable than me (so basically anyone) says, ah bingo! Do this or that. You can hope can't you? 

[Carolyn]

All of that can be explained by a single bad connection..... 

[je72]

All of that can be explained by a single bad connection.....

Thanks @Carolyn for putting my mind at rest. Those fault codes were new, so I thought I should update the thread

I'd done a bit of googling and frightened myself silly, I even read that someone had to replace the PCM or ECU (are they different on our cars? Couldn't get to the bottom of that) because it had got damaged by water ingress from the rear storage bins. I got especially scared by that one as I had swimming pools a couple of times in the 1st couple of weeks of ownership until I learned how to clean the drains. 

[je72]

To help me be methodical, I've found a diagram of the wiring loom and annotated the earth's I've cleaned so far:



There aren't anymore earths shown on that diagram, but I know that there are other earths in the engine bay, heck I can see a couple. To make sure I don't miss any, does anyone have a diagram (preferable) or a list so that I can go through them systematically and hopefully clean/sort/check all of them hopefully in one go?

Thanks in advance

[Carolyn]

Two important earths are not part of the loom.  The crankshaft sensor and the negative terminal from the battery to the gearbox (the main earth for the heavy voltage systems).

It could be that the harness itself is dodgy (not seen it before, but it must happen).

A replacement is not a lot from one of our breakers.

[je72]

So, after 2 months of fault free starting, my intermittent stalling came back last Thursday which resulted in me getting my 2nd piggyback on a transporter of the summer Also I'm calling this stalling as I was able to restart the car several times (with difficulty) only to have it stall after a varying amount of time, but never more than a couple of minutes.

ODBII reader gave the same fault as before P0340, so I don't actually think it's anything new. One thing that has happened recently was that I had my clutch replaced last week which would have involved the wiring loom in the suspect area to be fiddled with. Rather than have the car bought back to mine, this time I elected to have the car taken to a local garage as I couldn't face anymore frustration and I think it's time an actual mechanic took a look.

The garage did try the obvious thing and change the camshaft sensor to a brand new one, but it didn't resolve the problem. They are now electing to bring in an external auto electrician to check the wiring, the scary thing was that it's a bit open ended now, they charge £45 +vat per hour and it could take all day, but they did try to reassure me that it doesn't normally take anything like that long, but did add that our cars were a pain to work on because the wiring was in such tight spaces and sometimes couldn't be accessed at all without removing stuff.

Please add my 2's wiring harness to your prayers 

[Topdownman]

Lets hope you can start trusting the car again soon.

(And they find the problem quickly!).

[wotugonado]

It's not the loom I'll be praying for, top of my prayer list is your bank balance.......
Hope this sorts the issue though

[delhusband]

Fingers crossed for you man

[je72]

The prayers have failed. The garage called to tell me that the auto electrician could not find any fault with the electrics in the car. The only good news about this is that it only took him an hour to come to that solution, so plus the hour the garage spent putting on and taking off a new camshaft sensor I'm only up to 2 hours labour.

The bad news is that they are saying they now suspect the timing chain and are thinking that it could have become stretched  he went on to ask if i knew the full history and could there have been a time when it missed an oil change which could have introduced a problem with the chain tensioner which in turn could caused the chain to slip/stretch. He said to check it would take almost as long as to actually do the job and was in the region of £600  (:< > (:< > He also said they haven't been able to start it at all the times they've been looking at it.

Might @Carolyn or any of the experienced members be able to offer any advice at this point? The garage are basically waiting to hear what to do next, I'm totally befuddled, £600 if it definitely fixes the problem is bad enough, but what if it actually isn't and it's something else? 

Any advice gratefully received.

[jvanzyl]

Hang on... So they are saying they can't start the car and they can't find the electrical issue?

There are plenty of options here, one of which is you get another loom and engine off a breaker for probably not much and then you get Steve@D1 to fit it for less than what your garage quoted you..

You can also try a different ECU from a breaker. I just don't buy the whole thing about the chain slipping, as that would still allow the engine to crank and you'd be able to check the timing to see if it was off... That honestly sounds like a load of poo to me.

[Carolyn]

John is absolutely correct.

You are dealing with rank amateurs.  A stretched timing chain could never cause an intermittent problem.  It doesn't 'un-stretch and' re-stretch'.  It's not an elastic band.  They are about to make a wrong £600 guess at your expense.

If the valve timing is out my so much that it won't start... well how come it does start and then doesn't??

This is ELECTRICAL not mechanical. Period!

The timing chain CAN be measured for stretch by just taking the cam-cover off.  Your lot have not a clue. That's the charitable view....

You have an intermittent electrical problem that comes and goes when the harness in one particular area is moved around.  Probably a wire or connection that is broken but touching, thus sometimes making a circuit and sometimes not.

Get your car out of there ASAP!!

I'd buy a harness off Dean at Rutland MR2 (about £50) and swap it.

Unfortunately Steve at D1 is not active at the moment. 

If you can get your car here, I'll help you through doing the job yourself, using my lift, my tools and my 'expertise'.

We've got a couple of members around here who would show up on a weekend and help out too, two of which have removed a harness with the engine in the car.  I never have - but it's just fiddly, not difficult or complex.

I've also got a spare working ECU in case...