MR2 v. Elise S2 - your experiences please!

[Republik]

I won't bore you with the details but I've been looking for something fun for years now (I optimistically joined in 2013 to do a bit of research but things got put on the back-burner).

Circumstances have changed a little and I now think I can justify a 2nd car; the choice coming down to either a FL MR2 or an S2 Elise 111s.

I've done a fair bit of homework and am at the point where I could reasonably happily buy one of either, should a nice example present itself at the right price. I'm posting this as I realise that some members have moved on from the MR2 to the Elise so have experience of both (which I'd love to hear), as well really as giving me the opportunity to summarise my thoughts.

Despite the significant (circa 4x) price difference and MR2's deficit in out-and-out performance, I think these cars have a lot of similarities - drivetrain format, handling characteristics, limited practicality, lack of depreciation..  

As far as I see it, in the MR2's favour we have:

- Much cheaper to buy (£3.5-4k for a good one versus £15k-18k for a roughly equivalent Elise)
- Much cheaper and easier to repair / more conventional construction
- Much cheaper to service (certainly when it comes to the "C" on the Lotus with all the belts)
- Much cheaper / greater choice of tyres
- More choice of used vehicles
- More user-friendly hood
- Marginally cheaper to insure (about £50/yr for me)


While in the Lotus' favour we have:

- A lot more capable in a straight line, a fair bit more capable round the twisties I'd guess
- Far less susceptible to chassis corrosion
- Much nicer to look at
- A much nicer interior
- Marginally cheaper to tax
- Potentially a bit better on fuel
- Will probably continue to appreciate in value; perhaps significantly if S1 values are anything to go by although that could all go south come the inevitable recession
- Much greater image cache (not that this bothers me massively, although I'd love to own a true British sports car)


What concerns me most about the Elise are the possibility of getting stung on (what for me is) a very expensive car in buying one that's been pranged / abused, the usual K-series issues, the very complex, monolithic and expensive bodywork / chassis, potential reliability issues and the near-thousand pound cost of replacing a set of the wear-happy and queer-sized tyres.

Given either car's relative lack of depreciation I'm looking at the purchase cost as "parked" rather than "sunk".. and there's more chance that the more expensive Lotus might have to go to fund a house deposit if I ever find myself in the position to buy something round here other than a shoebox.

All things being equal of course I'd prefer the Lotus, however I have to be reasonably sensible (with running costs especially), like the MR2 in its own right and think I'd get more than enough enjoyment from one to justify taking the jap route.

So, for anyone who's owned both cars I'd be very interested to hear your experiences of them; especially in terms of reliability and running costs, and to a lesser extent performance.

Thanks all   s:) s:)

[m1tch]

Might be worth seeing if you could go out in a member's car on here, I got my MR2 as a project car (non daily drive) as I was looking for a lightweight RWD sports car, the Lotus is indeed lighter but its also a huge amount more money to buy and you will always be worried if you prang it.

I went with the MR2 as its a great starting platform, it doesn't have the most powerful engine but there are many parts over at monkeywrenchracing - my suggestion would be to buy an MR2 and then spend a bit on a turbo conversion and a few suspension bits - looking at the prices you have found you have over £10k to spend before its even on par with a stock Lotus cost. Also the price difference between the two cars would also buy you a lot of track time and tuition - the Lotus might be quicker on paper but I am sure a good driver in an MR2 could beat it vs a poor driver.

I had a good read of the below article(s), which shows them matching the MR2 vs the Lotus:

 m http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to ... r2-part-1/ m

[tricky1138]

Not an S2 but has had some discussion before...

 l viewtopic.php?f=9&t=60730&hilit=elise l

Hopefully Nic (Wabbitkilla) will be along soon, when he's not driving his S2 round Italy, to say what he thinks of each.

[The Other Stu]

Surely a FL 2ZZ trumps them both?

[wilko59]

The MR2 Roadster is 90% Elise for 10% of the price, I've heard said before.  Having not driven an Elise I can't confirm myself but I would say drive an MR2 then buy one as you'll love how it handles.  Don't temp yourself with the Elise then you wont have to worry about spending silly money.  £Pound for £pound, for the money the MR2 takes some beating.  I'm sure I can recall S1 Elises going for circa £4-5k, some time ago admittedly, the prices have rocketed.

[mikek]

I would take my 2zz 2 over the elise I had any day of the week. It's just a nicer, better place to be and I can get in and out of it! Just as much fun, just as fast if not quicker and a fraction of the cost.

[SteveJ]

I've had both (and still own my Elise) and to my mind the Elise is significantly better than a stock '2.

My last '2 was a turbo and had much stiffer suspension than stock (along with loads of bracing) so was significantly quicker in a straight line than the Elise and had similar ride characteristics (if anything the Elise being a Touring+ is slightly softer), but I'm pretty certain the Elise would beat it hands-down in the twisties.

For the Elise money that you quoted you can easily get a 1ZZ (or maybe even 2ZZ) powered model so negating the worries of the K-Series (although most of them will have been sorted by now with new head dowels / uprated cooling etc).

As for residual value - I've had mine for ~18 months now and I've been offered £1500 more for it 2 months ago than I paid for it privately (price I paid was what the previous owner had been offered as a trade-in against a new £60k Exige)

Yes - I'm terrified of having a prang as it will almost certainly be a write-off (just ask Nic about how easy it is to write one off!), but the grin-factor more than out-weighs it!!

Make sure you drive both (in particular a Toyota engine Elise as it will be a slightly more compliant ride) before making your decision - personally I don't think you will have a problem deciding once you do. If you find yourself in North Dorset one weekend let me know and I'll take you out for a spin.

PS. Running costs aren't that bad at all on the Elise - I use Haynes Motor Museum to service mine (as they are local & know their stuff with all sorts of exotica) and a full service (including coolant change) & 4 wheel alignment was only £340.

[Republik]

Thanks for all the replies so far  s:D s:D

Might be worth seeing if you could go out in a member's car on here, I got my MR2 as a project car (non daily drive) as I was looking for a lightweight RWD sports car, the Lotus is indeed lighter but its also a huge amount more money to buy and you will always be worried if you prang it.

I went with the MR2 as its a great starting platform, it doesn't have the most powerful engine but there are many parts over at monkeywrenchracing - my suggestion would be to buy an MR2 and then spend a bit on a turbo conversion and a few suspension bits - looking at the prices you have found you have over £10k to spend before its even on par with a stock Lotus cost. Also the price difference between the two cars would also buy you a lot of track time and tuition - the Lotus might be quicker on paper but I am sure a good driver in an MR2 could beat it vs a poor driver.

I had a good read of the below article(s), which shows them matching the MR2 vs the Lotus:

 m http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to ... r2-part-1/ m

Thanks - yes, I'd be more concerned about pranging a Lotus due to the value, cost of repair and high liklihood of writing it off..  although to be fair I tend to be quite precious about anything I own so an MR2 wouldn't be treated with contempt either!

Thanks for the mod suggestions - while I'm absolutely a tinkerer at heart and would love a turbo or 2ZZ conversion, I've played with cars before and am well aware that such exercises can (and usually do) become a massive money pit. I like the idea of dropping the ride height a bit, adding a decent exhaust manifold (in the interest of losing the pre-cats, some mass over the rear axle and gaining a few poinies) and aquiring a TTE exhaust, but that's realistically where my thirst for mods would stop.

Again, spending £15k on a lotus would most likely see me getting £15k+ back if selling it in a couple of years; I don't think the same could be said for chucking a similar amount of money at modding a £4k MR2. Compared to what I'm driving atm (a 1.8GDI V40 estate) either is going to seem fast and fun!

Having owned a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v in the past (which would crack 60 in about the same time as the MR2) I never really found myself feeling the need for more power in the name of driving enjoyment. I'd be happy to accept either vehicle pretty much for what they are and I'm not really chasing numbers or bragging rights.. although admittedly it would be nice to have 200bhp+ in a car many like to slate as the preserve of hairdressers :p

I'd agree totally about the tuition and track time though - that's something I think would be most beneficial (I have little experience with RWD and none with mid/rear engined cars) and enjoyable at the same time.

Thanks for the link - a little way through it so far and while well beyond what I'd envision doing myself, it makes for an interesting read none the less!

Not an S2 but has had some discussion before...

 l viewtopic.php?f=9&t=60730&hilit=elise l

Hopefully Nic (Wabbitkilla) will be along soon, when he's not driving his S2 round Italy, to say what he thinks of each.

Thanks - will give it a read!

Surely a FL 2ZZ trumps them both?

I doubt that tbh.. while I'm sure a 2ZZ MR2 is very pleasant, I suspect it'd still be down a little on power to weight compared to a 111s, while the power output is only one piece of the puzzle and the Elise has more to offer than just raw acceleration.
 

The MR2 Roadster is 90% Elise for 10% of the price, I've heard said before.  Having not driven an Elise I can't confirm myself but I would say drive an MR2 then buy one as you'll love how it handles.  Don't temp yourself with the Elise then you wont have to worry about spending silly money.  £Pound for £pound, for the money the MR2 takes some beating.  I'm sure I can recall S1 Elises going for circa £4-5k, some time ago admittedly, the prices have rocketed.

Yup, I've heard this said many times (or variations of), and while I'm sure that the Elise is ultimately better, I very much doubt it would offer four times the fun! I came close to looking at a very low mileage S2 111s with hard top for £15k recently; unsurprisingly it sold very quickly and I didn't get the opportunity to view, while I also still had some reservations that held me back. Likewise I've seen one or two MR2s that have tempted me (although nothing yet that ticks all the boxes - FL, grey or black with leather, hard top, TTE exhaust and sub 80k miles).  

I agree about the price of S1s - a bit of a sore point as when a half-decent one could be picked up for £6k I was looking for a single vehicle, so it really wasn't practical enough. If there were still £6k now I'd probably split the difference and buy one!

[Republik]

Thanks again for all the responses rolling in!

I would take my 2zz 2 over the elise I had any day of the week. It's just a nicer, better place to be and I can get in and out of it! Just as much fun, just as fast if not quicker and a fraction of the cost.

Fair enough - having experienced both in a very limited capacity (never been in either although have had a ride in a VX220T) I'm not sure I'd agree about it being a nicer place to be - personally I really don't like the plastic-heavy cabin of the MR2 while I love the internal aesthetic of hte Elise.. however I can wholly appreciate where you're coming from about getting in and out!

I've had both (and still own my Elise) and to my mind the Elise is significantly better than a stock '2.

My last '2 was a turbo and had much stiffer suspension than stock (along with loads of bracing) so was significantly quicker in a straight line than the Elise and had similar ride characteristics (if anything the Elise being a Touring+ is slightly softer), but I'm pretty certain the Elise would beat it hands-down in the twisties.

For the Elise money that you quoted you can easily get a 1ZZ (or maybe even 2ZZ) powered model so negating the worries of the K-Series (although most of them will have been sorted by now with new head dowels / uprated cooling etc).

As for residual value - I've had mine for ~18 months now and I've been offered £1500 more for it 2 months ago than I paid for it privately (price I paid was what the previous owner had been offered as a trade-in against a new £60k Exige)

Yes - I'm terrified of having a prang as it will almost certainly be a write-off (just ask Nic about how easy it is to write one off!), but the grin-factor more than out-weighs it!!

Make sure you drive both (in particular a Toyota engine Elise as it will be a slightly more compliant ride) before making your decision - personally I don't think you will have a problem deciding once you do. If you find yourself in North Dorset one weekend let me know and I'll take you out for a spin.

PS. Running costs aren't that bad at all on the Elise - I use Haynes Motor Museum to service mine (as they are local & know their stuff with all sorts of exotica) and a full service (including coolant change) & 4 wheel alignment was only £340.

Thanks - if I go for an Elise it would have to be a 111s unless I got a seriously good deal on another model.. my reasoning being the better fuel economy, lower tax and more neutral mass distribution of the K-series. I'm sure the Toyota lump is more reliable though and the head gasket issue does bother me with the K.. that's one thing that put me off the 21k mile S2 I was considering viewing recently as I figure I had all that remedial work to look forward to!

In addition the 2ZZ variants (111R / R) have gone up significantly recently while the 1ZZ S commands a bit more than the 111S as they're newer (the cheapest of either of the Toyota variants on PH classifieds is £17k, while the 111s' start at £13k for a high miler but more realistically about £15k+.

The appreciation of yours sounds about concurrent with my findings looking at used prices; although if it was what the previous owner had been offered as a trade in you probably did well!

Thanks for your offer of a ride - my Mrs' family is in Dorset so you never know - I might just take you up on that  s;) s;)

[m1tch]

Other option is to go with both? Buy the Lotus as a weekend occasion car and get a cheaper MR2 and enjoy that and not worry too much about dinging and denting things? Perhaps get the MR2 first and run with that so you have a bit longer to 'upgrade' to a Lotus (Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious).

[1979scotte]

Elise is way better handling and looking.
If it's just a track day or weekend car go for the Elise you won't loose money.
Don't crash it FFS!

If you plan to tour or use it daily then the 2 is more comfortable has a better roof and you don't look like a tit getting in and out of it. I think a 2 needs mods but plenty don't. Had a turbo and now on a V6 I love my 2.

Had a passenger journey in a vx220 with a supercharger 270 bhp epic.
If you want something silly quick that handles just like the Elise but is faster and cheaper get a VX220 Turbo. It is an Elise underneath after all.

[m1tch]

Other option is to bolt up all the Mitsubushi Evo AWD running gear (think its the EVO 3 or 4) to your Volvo V40 as the chassis is the same - I had a phase 2 Volvo V40 a few years back  s:P s:P

[1979scotte]

Other option is to bolt up all the Mitsubushi Evo AWD running gear (think its the EVO 3 or 4) to your Volvo V40 as the chassis is the same - I had a phase 2 Volvo V40 a few years back  s:P s:P

Off topic but what an awesome sleeper.

[Republik]

Other option is to go with both? Buy the Lotus as a weekend occasion car and get a cheaper MR2 and enjoy that and not worry too much about dinging and denting things? Perhaps get the MR2 first and run with that so you have a bit longer to 'upgrade' to a Lotus (Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious).

lol - ta for the suggestion but that's basically never going to happen :p

Elise is way better handling and looking.
If it's just a track day or weekend car go for the Elise you won't loose money.
Don't crash it FFS!

If you plan to tour or use it daily then the 2 is more comfortable has a better roof and you don't look like a tit getting in and out of it. I think a 2 needs mods but plenty don't. Had a turbo and now on a V6 I love my 2.

Had a passenger journey in a vx220 with a supercharger 270 bhp epic.
If you want something silly quick that handles just like the Elise but is faster and cheaper get a VX220 Turbo. It is an Elise underneath after all.

Thanks.. I doubt I'd lose money on the purchase price of the Elise, but I suspect servicing, repairs and tyres could burn a couple of grand a year.

I could see myself using it pretty much daily in the summer.. the only reason really I'm keeping the Volvo is that it was inherited, has been in the family since new, is low mileage, reliable, worth sod all and occasionally useful for moving stuff about. I did consider running the roadster in the summer and Volvo in the winter, although I don't like the thought of either of them being laid up for any period of time, plus it'd be a pain with the tax and to a lesser extent insurance.

Did consider a VX220 but again they're not so good on fuel or tax as either the Elise or MR2, unique parts are even harder to get hold of and I don't otherwise find them as appealing for some reason.  That said a £4k MR2 would be halfway towards an NA VX..

Other option is to bolt up all the Mitsubushi Evo AWD running gear (think its the EVO 3 or 4) to your Volvo V40 as the chassis is the same - I had a phase 2 Volvo V40 a few years back  s:P s:P

Off topic but what an awesome sleeper.

Nice - knew it was a Mitsubishi underneath but wasn't aware of that level of cross-compatability. I do love a good sleeper   s8) s8)

[1979scotte]

Vauxhall badge puts people off.
I like them because of rarity value.
I live in south East London and I see so many Elise and Boxster very very rare site is the vauxhall.
Have you thought about a Boxster? I suppose running cost would be a bit steep.
An MR2 wins there even if it is modified.

[cptspaulding]

If you shop well you can pick up a healthy MR2 for £1500. Spend £700 on the Meister coilovers, get geometry redone.
Now you have a huge chunk of money left to think about what you want to do next while you enjoy your very cheap, B-road smile mobile.

Hard to say what you really like & what you can/want to live with on a short test drive.

My 2 is my daily driver. I don't think I could live with the Elise as a daily.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[JoeCool]

Well, I know my 2zz MR2 is significantly quicker around the Nurburgring than my mates S2 elise!

But then he was nervous about crash g his pride and joy, and I only really had to worry about armco repair bills.

In all honesty, despite being 'similar' on paper, they're still worlds apart. You need to drive both to find out what is going to work for you. The elise interior looks lovely in photos but it's just not a nice place to be on the motorway just getting from A-B.  No creature comforts, very little... Comfort.... Bare metal resonates like hell. You need to know if it's livable for your purposes.

The MR2 is more comfy, an order of magnitude more refined, and yes, ugly and plasticy as hell. But then it's a £1,500 car, not a £15k one, so it doesn't need to be as focused or as special feeling amd we can forgive it it's roots on the Toyota production line I think....

If you want a toy, a classic, a car to cherish and the ultimate driving experience, then it's the elise all the way.

But the sensible option IMO is to spend £1,500 (or go nuts and get a really nice one for £2k!) on a facelift MR2: as said above you get 90% of the ethos of the elise for 10% of the money. No hassle or worries. Easy, reliable motoring. Your first mid engined rear wheel drive six speed sports car with a limited slip diff.... Huge, huge value for money. The hose deposit stays in the bank and your liability is limited to the value of the car. These cars are unbelievably cheap to tinker with/upgrade. Parts are peanuts. There's loads of options just for subtle upgrades. It's fun, they're lego.

Don't discount other options: I have a soft spot for vx220's as well, but they're not really a cheaper alternative to the elise any more I think.

And you'd be mad not to cross compare boxters and even caymans if you're not into the whole convertible thing. Right now I think they offer incredible value for money and theyre a step up in refinement from both elises and MR2's, whilst retaining performance and class leading dynamics.

Go out and drive a good elise, a good MR2, and some flavor of mid engined Porsche. Then decide if your desire for the 'specialness' outweighs the extra money you have to lay into those options vs a plucky little grinning Japanese sports car that will leave your wallet in tact but deliver a really unique and joyous motoring experience for the price of a minicabbed Nissan altima, whilst costing fifty quid a corner for tyres and 40mpg...

[mikek]

Well, I know my 2zz MR2 is significantly quicker around the Nurburgring than my mates S2 elise!

But then he was nervous about crash g his pride and joy, and I only really had to worry about armco repair bills.

In all honesty, despite being 'similar' on paper, they're still worlds apart. You need to drive both to find out what is going to work for you. The elise interior looks lovely in photos but it's just not a nice place to be on the motorway just getting from A-B.  No creature comforts, very little... Comfort.... Bare metal resonates like hell. You need to know if it's livable for your purposes.

The MR2 is more comfy, an order of magnitude more refined, and yes, ugly and plasticy as hell. But then it's a £1,500 car, not a £15k one, so it doesn't need to be as focused or as special feeling amd we can forgive it it's roots on the Toyota production line I think....

If you want a toy, a classic, a car to cherish and the ultimate driving experience, then it's the elise all the way.

But the sensible option IMO is to spend £1,500 (or go nuts and get a really nice one for £2k!) on a facelift MR2: as said above you get 90% of the ethos of the elise for 10% of the money. No hassle or worries. Easy, reliable motoring. Your first mid engined rear wheel drive six speed sports car with a limited slip diff.... Huge, huge value for money. The hose deposit stays in the bank and your liability is limited to the value of the car. These cars are unbelievably cheap to tinker with/upgrade. Parts are peanuts. There's loads of options just for subtle upgrades. It's fun, they're lego.

Don't discount other options: I have a soft spot for vx220's as well, but they're not really a cheaper alternative to the elise any more I think.

And you'd be mad not to cross compare boxters and even caymans if you're not into the whole convertible thing. Right now I think they offer incredible value for money and theyre a step up in refinement from both elises and MR2's, whilst retaining performance and class leading dynamics.

Go out and drive a good elise, a good MR2, and some flavor of mid engined Porsche. Then decide if your desire for the 'specialness' outweighs the extra money you have to lay into those options vs a plucky little grinning Japanese sports car that will leave your wallet in tact but deliver a really unique and joyous motoring experience for the price of a minicabbed Nissan altima, whilst costing fifty quid a corner for tyres and 40mpg...

+1 absolutely spot on. You need to drive all of them. They are all very different, all have positives and negatives.

[Republik]

Vauxhall badge puts people off.
I like them because of rarity value.
I live in south East London and I see so many Elise and Boxster very very rare site is the vauxhall.
Have you thought about a Boxster? I suppose running cost would be a bit steep.
An MR2 wins there even if it is modified.

I'm not too bothered about the badge tbh, however I think they're going to suffer from all the issues that the Lotus will (aside perhaps from the eye-watering cost of tyres), will be harder to get  bits for and are worse on fuel / tax. The initial cost of the vehicle is less of a concern to me (as long as I know I can get it back if selling) so if going for something this specialist I'd rather just bite the bullet and go with the Lotus which IMO looks better and has various other more positive attributes.

I have thought about the Boxter thanks, however discounted it on running costs (fuel economy, tax, parts prices) as well as their apparent predisposition towards grenading their engine through intermediate shaft bearing failure. I did also consider the S2000, but again I'm put off by less-than-great fuel economy and running costs tbh..

If you shop well you can pick up a healthy MR2 for £1500. Spend £700 on the Meister coilovers, get geometry redone.
Now you have a huge chunk of money left to think about what you want to do next while you enjoy your very cheap, B-road smile mobile.

Hard to say what you really like & what you can/want to live with on a short test drive.

My 2 is my daily driver. I don't think I could live with the Elise as a daily.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Thanks - I'm really after a nice, lowish-mileage, standard example with FSH that won't need a lot of work though; which I think I'd struggle to get for £1500 (although I'm happy to look at any you might want to suggest!). It seems to me that realistically I'm looking at £3-4k.

While I used to have full garage failities at my disposal and carry out most work myself, those days are sadly gone.. so other than keeping it in good working order (geo probably isn't a bad idea!), upgrading as I go when stuff fails and perhaps a new exhaust manifold, mods are out I'm afraid.

Well, I know my 2zz MR2 is significantly quicker around the Nurburgring than my mates S2 elise!

But then he was nervous about crash g his pride and joy, and I only really had to worry about armco repair bills.

In all honesty, despite being 'similar' on paper, they're still worlds apart. You need to drive both to find out what is going to work for you. The elise interior looks lovely in photos but it's just not a nice place to be on the motorway just getting from A-B.  No creature comforts, very little... Comfort.... Bare metal resonates like hell. You need to know if it's livable for your purposes.

The MR2 is more comfy, an order of magnitude more refined, and yes, ugly and plasticy as hell. But then it's a £1,500 car, not a £15k one, so it doesn't need to be as focused or as special feeling amd we can forgive it it's roots on the Toyota production line I think....

If you want a toy, a classic, a car to cherish and the ultimate driving experience, then it's the elise all the way.

But the sensible option IMO is to spend £1,500 (or go nuts and get a really nice one for £2k!) on a facelift MR2: as said above you get 90% of the ethos of the elise for 10% of the money. No hassle or worries. Easy, reliable motoring. Your first mid engined rear wheel drive six speed sports car with a limited slip diff.... Huge, huge value for money. The hose deposit stays in the bank and your liability is limited to the value of the car. These cars are unbelievably cheap to tinker with/upgrade. Parts are peanuts. There's loads of options just for subtle upgrades. It's fun, they're lego.

Don't discount other options: I have a soft spot for vx220's as well, but they're not really a cheaper alternative to the elise any more I think.

And you'd be mad not to cross compare boxters and even caymans if you're not into the whole convertible thing. Right now I think they offer incredible value for money and theyre a step up in refinement from both elises and MR2's, whilst retaining performance and class leading dynamics.

Go out and drive a good elise, a good MR2, and some flavor of mid engined Porsche. Then decide if your desire for the 'specialness' outweighs the extra money you have to lay into those options vs a plucky little grinning Japanese sports car that will leave your wallet in tact but deliver a really unique and joyous motoring experience for the price of a minicabbed Nissan altima, whilst costing fifty quid a corner for tyres and 40mpg...

+1 absolutely spot on. You need to drive all of them. They are all very different, all have positives and negatives.

Thanks guys - good point JoeCool about the interior.. as you suggest you can only tell so much from pictures.

I agree with everything else you're saying and can't make up my bloody mind :p

As you say the MR2 offers so much for so little.. if it didn't exist I can just imagine the train of thought when looking at the Elise: "if only a more mainstream manufacturer made a more reliable, toned-down, almost-as-fun and significantly cheaper equivalent they'd fly off the shelves". Thankfully they do and I suppose I should really just get one bought.

As above I'd pretty much discounted the Boxter.. I'd love a Cayman but I think again they're probably out on the basis of running costs. That said I've just had a look at some and the older ones seem to be fantastic value for money which really puts the Elise in the shade in this respect -  this in particularis very tempting providing there's nowt nasty lurking beneath the surface.. however I'm not sure if these still suffered from catastrophic engine failure and I think we're moving towards trouser-dropping servicing, tax and fuelling costs.

I'd absolutely love an Elise but my fear is that I'll overstretch myself and get stung financially. I earn next to feck-all and while I have the readies to park somewhere fun (it's not earning owt in the bank after all) I don't have thousands to chuck down the drain in repairs, servicing, tyres etc every year. I'm thinking with an MR2 I should get away with about £1K in annual running costs (£350 insurance, £240 tax, £250 servicing, the other £160 on hopefully infrequent repairs and tyres every 3-4yrs).

Another concern with the Elise (or anything else of similar cost) is that they'll begin to depriciate when the inevitable recession hits.. granted they've not seen the appreciation that the S1 has seen, however I can see all boys toys falling in value to an extent as people continue to tighten their belts. On the other hand of course, I don't want to end up priced out of the market completely if they continue to go up. When I started looking it was at £12k base models, over 4yrs of appreciation I've already talked myself up to £16k 111s'..

[1979scotte]

From what your saying you want a bit of fun on a budget more than the ultimate driving experience in that case it's a 5 or a 2.
All the other choices could cost a fortune if things go wrong.

[lamcote]

Having read all you have said, I agree with Scotte, you absolutely need to get the MR2. You will get a really great car with none of the financial worries.

I had a Boxster S a few years ago and I can honestly say that I really am happier with my MR2.

[JoeCool]

I agree. The constant worry about financial headaches takes all the fun out of a 'toy' car. Plus the need to maintain its value is a dangerous trap.

MR2 or mx-5 given what you've said about the top end budget representing savings, and income not being free-flowing.

Put the house deposit in a stocks and shares isa! Not low volume British sports cars!

[Wabbitkilla]

Ok, I've been offline from the club for a while soo....

I obviously owned a highly modified 2, staying with 1ZZ but verging on 160bhp.
Hard BC coilovers and reasonable tyres make it a very competent car.
I didn't go 2ZZ becuase, well I prefer the 1ZZ character.
It's a pretty good car to keep on the road but these days corrosion is starting to become an issue. It's surprising some of the pre-fabricated bits you can get for the 2 for rebuilding breakages.
Brakes in good condition are excellent when equipped with fresh disks, braided lines and dot5.1 fluid, but the handbrake design is unforgivable.

Note that part of the reason for me getting into MR2's was because I drove a S2 135R Elise on the inner track at Rockingham in an exercise against much more powerful cars and it was a delight ... and dead easy to dance around the powerful but heavy bu--ers!

So eventually i skipped over to the dark side and bought a "cheap" 1998 Elise S1.
It's got a few tweaks, and i needed to carry out a complete suspension refresh.
The engine burns a little bit of oil which is not uncommon on K-series, and i'll let it off as it's done well over 100K ... It's had one head gasket replaced to my knowledge, I'm the 7th owner.
Is it better / faster than the MR2 with it's mildly non-standard setup and engine tune (estimated 130-140bhp) in a car that weighs 725Kg without my fat lump in it?
F-ck yeah! Until you have driven an Elise you won't understand what "proper" suspension does, simply put double wishbone suspension on a very stiff chassis cannot be beaten ... there's a reason why all racing cars use it and to have it on a car you can buy and drive on the road is a huge honour. In Elise ownership circles the S1 is the best handling car of them all, the chassis balance is outstanding ... the 111S (160bhp Rover lump) or the special 190 (190bhp Rover lump with ITB's) are the ultimate versions, but they demand very high prices these days. Everything mechanical is well designed and easy to work on (relative to the MR2). Front brakes are made by AP and rears by Brembo with a handbrake that ... just ... works and keeps working. Mechanical spares are easy to get hold ofand the Rove engine is actually a very clever design and pretty light. Loads of tuning options are available and the Rota Slipstream 15"/16"wheels give you a much better choice of tyres. I'm currently running AD08R's ... iro £400 per set. Things that are hard to live with ...
Well it's pretty tiny and requires a certain physical flexibility to enter and exit ... the MR2 is much easier.
It does have a boot but there is a weight limit ... and boy do you notice if you exceed that limit.
Yeah if you have a crash, that bodywork is not made by Lotus anymore, but the crash structure at the front is exactly the same as all the S2.
The Alarm / Immobiliser is probably dead or dying at this time of life, but you can bypass it or get an alternative fitted.

Then because I'm a big fat lump and wanted some headroom I wanted a short tail S2 car.
I didn't fancy the 1ZZ powered cars and the 2ZZ were a bit beyond my affordability range ... I actually don't like the 2ZZ and in Lotuses the 2ZZ is proving to be causing a few reliability headaches now that are not talked about much ... because people are trying to sell them. I sat in a 111S and heard the engine and fell in love immediately.
So I bought my first S2 111S at mates rates from a friend who was giving up ownership due to ill health (and I feel he had fallen out of love with the car for some reason).
The S2 weighs around 840Kg, but the Rover VVC engine kicks out 156bhp in standard form with a surprising wedge of torque you do not get in any Toyota engine, the engine has 1 plus two half camshafts with synchro both ends so uses two timing belts and multiple vvc controllers. This is why it's fairly expensive for a C service £420 as compared to £350 on the non-vvc engine. The intake cam alters it's duration by up to 120degrees which is serious tuned engine territory and has bigger valves along with toughened up pistons, rods, and bottom end. You can actually hear the difference if you can listed to one then the other in the way the engine breaths. The chassis is almost identical, same offsets for wheels, same braking system (no abs), wheels are upped to 16"/17" ... but!
The but is Lotus decided people were pushing the S1 too hard and crashing them too often, so they dialled in a lot of understeer on the S2 (until the 135R and Exige came along). The front tyres are 175/15/16 while the backs are 225/45/17. Jumping from an S1 to and S2 on standard setup is not a pleasant experience, you really feel that lacking in the way the understeer has been introduced. The S1 is a delightful thing with almost perfect 50/50 balance of grip, suspension, and weight. The S2 is very much rear end biased ... how it compares to an MR2 i'm no longer sure since it's been a few years since I've driven a 2. Also due to the difference in wheel sizes the S2 becomes more "long-legged", on the motorway that's great, on the twisties you have to e-learn your gear selection to get the best from it.

The chassis of all Elises is very resilient, corrosion is not a problem but it pays to clean it regularly and apply protection and it's nowhere near as bad as some of the MR2 bits i've seen. OK apart from the front ARB which is hollow and fell off in my hands early days having the S1   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  . There are a couple of areas where the wishbones mount to pay extra attention to and keep clean and protected, like the MR2 it's partly down to the quality of work done by dealerships in the past.

The Achilles heal of all Lotus Elises and variants is the rear toe links. They are designed so that in the event of an accident they break and protect the rear subframe from damage, and on the inner end they do two jobs. If a car has had a fair amount of excitable driving or track days then the break point becomes weakened and can fracture under driving conditions .. or even just bend. So with a rear wheel or two deciding to go in its own direction you become a passenger with little or no control. It can send you off a track into a sand trap, or into (onto in my case) the nearest dry stone wall. So it's worth replacing them with uprated toelinks ... there are a few different designs and it depends what hub uprights you have on the car which is best suited for yours. So then you think, ok I've bashed my car and need it fixed....
Early S2 clamshells are different to Toyota based cars, so that's the 111S, 111R, and 135R.
They are only made as one offs by Lotus as special orders costing iro £3500 - £4000 and can take up to 18 months to deliver.
The crash box which all Elises use is iro £2K from Lotus new .... be wary of pattern ones as they've been found to be pieced together bashed ones or just cheap fibreglass copies which have none of the composite strength of the originals. If you know the right people you can get one or two at reasonable prices (i know a couple of the right people who would help me if i wanted to take that route).

S2's are easier to clamber in and out of, offer more comfort than the S2, the 111S was a sales exercise and producing a more plush car with more power so gets electric windows, central locking, hard top, and some hard aircon (notoriously unreliable). It's a real classy car and I like the way the engine produces its power with the noise it makes having a non-standard exhaust fitted.

Price of a S1 these days ranges from £7500 to £14000 depending on mileage and condition. 111S and specials go for £17K into the low £20's.
Price of an S2 111S is £14K - £17500 again depending on quality and mileage, there are some real low mileage ones out there which are worth getting as the prices are sneaking upwards now. Be aware though that even though it's low mileage it's still going to be a 13 to 15 year old car and will need some things doing to it.
S2 Toyota powered cars are still in the £20K upwards range for decent cars.
There are some nice engine conversions around that make for an entertaining Elise.
It started with the;
1. Audi 1.8 20v Turbo unit, out of the box that's 225bhp and good torque. Heavier than the original Rover but it makes for fun.
2. Ford Duratec or Zetec, these are quite light engines, loads of tuning abilities and sound great with ITB's. 200bhp - 260bhp or thereabouts.
3. The increasingly popular Honda K-Series engine (some say the design was stolen from Rover and improved, who knows for certain?) N/A that's about 220BHP with tuning capability above that.
4. Honda K-Series with a supercharger slapped on it, starting out at 350bhp and going higher ... it's already a forged engine so your wallet is the limit.
5. Rover K-Series is capable with work of 280bhp NA ... that's right NA .. don't know how driveable that is though. There's a reliable company called DVApower you can look up for various options, lots of options.
6. Rover K's were turbocharged in other cars and some turbos have appeared on Elises, don't know much about them myself.
7. Rover K's have seen superchargers fitted too ... should be interesting.

The Toyota powered Elises do offer "better reliability", but they are heavier and the weight is further biased to the back of the car.
2ZZ's are showing cam lobe wear and failure simply because they get thrashed more, interesting comparison, the Rover K-VVC produces 160bhp and limits its reves to about 7200rpm while the Toyota 2ZZ produces 189bhp but needs revving to 9200rpm to achieve that. The Toyota engine is heavier and the car is heavier (engine plus bits like ABS and the Toyota gearbox is hugely heavier than the Rover ... which is actually a great gearbox). So my heart says the K-Series car is the better option if you trust yourself not to crash it (ahem   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  ). If you're going to track any car regularly then i recommend investing in sump baffling, they all suffer because they were all designed to be in the front of cars with none of the lateral shift you get in a mid-engined car.

Clams are easier to come by for Toyota powered cars, again don't be tempted by the copies ... they are ALL poor quality copies. Get a good bodyshop to scavenge broken original clams and fabricate a replacement is actually better and improves the provenance of the car. And with a Lotus provenance is important when you want to resell it.

Ok so you want to consider after all this waffle where to start?

1. The MR2 is a remarkably good car at what it does, at this stage even the last cars sold are 9 years old so the standard suspension is f-cked and needs replacing. The calipers likely need a minimum strip and rebuild, the rears may be worse. The cross-member will be questionable along with all the suspension bushes associated with it because they rust themselves in place. The 1ZZ engine is a nice characterful engine and gets a lot of criticism it doesn't deserve ... but buying second hand is a worry (more than a Rover unit imho). Saying that a minimum rebuild for an oil burner would involve new rings, honing the bore, a head clean up with valve stem oil seals, shimming, and gaskets. It starts getting expensive very quickly beyond that. A 2ZZ is an unknown because they've ALL been thrashed and any from Toyota cars will be 9 plus years old with associated age and wear problems ... it is not the magic pill people seem to boast it to be. It's easy to get in and out of, handles great when sorted, you have a small selection of matched tyres to go from ... or change wheels and see if that helps. Spares are relatively easy to come by, exhaust and tuning options are very limited. You can stuff enough crap in to go away for a week as a couple if you pack light (i always compare it to packing a bike)

2. Rover Elise S2. Hugely capable car spoiled by a couple of poor choices by Lotus (wheels and understeer). Again it's an old car but 3 to 4 times the value of a comparable MR2. The engine is actually reliable as long as you take care with it. Warm it up with respect, allow it to cool when your finished. If you get a coolant leak act immediately .. stop!!! You can actually get a coolant level alarm ... I might invest in one of these soon myself. After my unfortunate experience with the Black car i decided to try again but take care of what I feel needs putting right on a Rover S2.
My current car cost me £17500, it's a 2003 111S in Aztec Bronze (one of only 5 produced) and had 26300 miles on it when i bought it.
I have had;
Braided brake lines fitted with a fluid refresh.
Mintex MT1144 pads fittect all-round (rears were still original and fronts were no-name sh-t)
New rear coilovers fitted (fronts were already upgraded ... don't ask). Even then the rears were £350 ... so double that just for basic GAZ adjustables all-round.
C-Service £450 (the original Rover factor belts were still on it, and the plugs)
Uprated toelinks
Team Dynamics pro-race 1.2S wheels fitted, allowing me to have Exige spec tyres, AD08R 205/45/16 and 225/45/17
Full Geo ... critical with an Elise but they are pretty solid at maintaining their Geo.
That little lot with labour cost me £3506 .. so that's right i've spent £21K on an Elise that still needs a couple of little marks on the bodywork sorting.
But to me it's worth it.

3. Toyota Elise. Given what i've said against it ... it's again a hugely capable car, you will end up spending 5 times the value of an MR2 minimum to get a decent one. SteveJ and I keep in touch on occasion and it would be interesting to compare our cars to really notice the differences in them.

4. Engine converted Elise ... usually if they've been converted then a lot of other stuff has been sorted at the same time. They're still not cheap though

I'm part way back from a two week holiday in Europe in the new Elise, it's been great ... but the passenger side has 2.5 cases of wine, 2 bottles of something else, and all my luggage for the holiday. The boot is not full but I've got a few tools in there, my tyre weld, first aid kit, soft top when it's dry, and a fold up camp chair ... I just don't want to upset the balance of the car by loading it up at the back. So it's fine to go away single ... if you're a couple someone is going to either be very uncomfortable or very smelly by the end of the holiday   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Whichever you choose you will have loads of fun ... I mean it LOADS of fun, a bit of heartache and wallet damage. I dunno I just like a car to make me smile when i sit down in it to get for a drive.

I add that the MR2 Roadster community (and to some degree the MR2OC) and actually the MX5 club are different from other clubs. They are populated by really friendly people who are genuinely helpful and good fun to spend time with. You get that warm feeling very quickly as long as you don't act like a complete t!t (don't know how i've got away with it for so long). The Lotus gangs have similar characters but I have to admit not quite the same feel. There are purists who will sniff at anything you do that doesn't meet their own "high standards" or wallet weights, doesn't matter what you do. They don't seem to have gatherings that are as friendly and amiable as the 2 croud. I actually prefer insinuating myself into the 2 head bangers meets than go to Lotus meets (few and far between). I think it's partly down to the parochial area setup for the Lotus clubs that cause this to happen sadly.

[Wabbitkilla]

Go have a test drive in a couple of S2 Elises, there are a couple of dealers down south who seem to be quality.
It's only when you've driven one you really understand why it's a better drivers car than most other cars on the road.

I really bough my 2 based on my enjoyment of driving a S2 135S on track because i believed the 2 would be more robust in everyday use.
And it really was one of my better life choices.
Eventually when it didn't need to be the every day car and i was reminded of my experience in the Elise that i changed to Elise ownership

[K T M Rider]

I'd absolutely love an Elise but my fear is that I'll overstretch myself and get stung financially...............

............Another concern with the Elise (or anything else of similar cost) is that they'll begin to depriciate when the inevitable recession hits..

As others have said, really hard to see how you could enjoy Elise ownership if it will come with that amount of financial anxiety.

Presumably your fear around plumping for the MR2 is that you may then forever miss out on what you assume is the superior driving experience of the Elise. Maybe I can help you lay that fear to rest. Superior on track  - bound to be, but on the road, well Evo at least (when swapping between a PFL MR2 and an Elise 111S) seemed to much prefer the handling of the MR2 !!!

Elise vs MR2 Evo road test scans in this thread (the 111S comparison is towards the bottom)

 l viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36378&p=443569&hilit=evo#p443569 l

(If you right click the scans and save to your PC, then much easier to read)